Hey everyone! I met Dave at WOC Milan and had a great, long chat with him. I had been meaning to swing over to this site for a while, but kept losing time because I am actually rubbish at time management. I wanted to field any questions you all might have, whether critical or not, with this post. I see there are some, well, mixed feelings about me here, along with some vitriolic comments. That's OK! I knew putting out videos would subject myself to some pretty intense critique. Firstly, I wanted to say re: my Niche video- if I gave off that I though the Niche is not a good grinder, that is a mistake. My point of the video was that it is not the grinder it is cracked up to be (read some miraculous grinder that can do everything perfectly). As for using Wendelboe in the video, as all content creators do, this part is for show. I had had a Niche for well over a year prior to making the video. Secondly, I wanted to ensure people know I am not in cahoots with any manufacturer unless otherwise stated. It is a legal formality (should probably use a stronger word here) to make aware connections I have when making a video. If no connection is noted, no connection is there. Thirdly, I have never once made a video just for controversy or clicks. If subscribers, etc, were my goal, I would be playing the game a lot harder with heavily clickbait titles, going over more general subjects, and doing the shorts game constantly to grow. Instead, I have purposefully kept my full time job with Onyx Coffee Lab to ensure what I do on Youtube is steeped in what I enjoy and what I want to do. If I ever do what I think would appeal to a massive audience, I likely wouldn't be having fun anymore. Anyway, like me or hate me, I am happy to hear from you! Especially from one user who seems to really dislike me from an email exchange ;) Cheers, friends! And seriously, don't feel the need to hold back. I want to get better and meeting Dave, I think, was one step in getting there.

@"lancehedrick"#p30542 Welcome to the forum Lance! Great to see you here! Your “how to steam steam milk for latte art” was excellent! Please take your time to familiarise yourself with what we had discussed re-Niche one year review. https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/811-niche-zero-one-year-in-review/4 Am sure a lot of our members will chip in!

@"LMSC"#p30543 Totally! I read through the thread. Wanted to just be able to field questions or critiques here instead of trying to catch up there! And welcome any other comment/critique here. Saw loads of opinions on how I present, so would like to hear more pointed critique so I might be able to glean something from this group of hobbyists!

I applaud this post, the fact that you have taken time to come on here and even address it, to me shows your more than just a content creator. You do have a some what quirky style of presentation, But it's nice to have some one who's knowledgeable joining the forum, hopefully you'll stick around with input ![Giphy - studying short circuit GIF](https://media1.giphy.com/media/DwrnYsZCXspu8/giphy.gif?cid=bb77869fqz0dehdcyx2unkhd8apr1t17nxqilu8p472w54zn&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)

@"Cuprajake"#p30547 absolutely! I genuinely do try my best to be the in between of, say, Dave and Hoffmann. Meaning, quirky entertainment and deep dives. I don't feign to have the knowledge or experience of Dave, nor the affability of Hoffmann, but I have helped a lot of people and that makes me happy. Thanks for dropping a note!

Lance, thank you for that, you are most welcome here. As a long term Niche owner I might disagree with some of your conclusions but you obviously care about coffee.

Good to see you here, as we form part of your audience. I think it's universally accepted your latte art stuff is great. In my opinion it's some of the best on YouTube and I always recommend it. My suspicion, it's so good is because you're totally in your comfort zone. You have branched out now and crafting your own unique style where you feel totally comfortable. It's a lot harder than people realise to review machines and grinders. The reviewers world is a tough one when you have the likes of Hoffman out there. We all feel entitled to take a pop at YouTubers, I certainly don't have the coconuts to want to appear on video trying to be interesting and engaging. I'm pretty sure I couldn't do it. Rest assured we moan about Hoffman and others as well…not every video he produces touches everyone, same for all the reviewers/YouTubers.. I have been girding my loins to watch your Linea Micro review you did…only because I have a thing about the looks of the LMLM and LM do make some hugely overcomplicated design decisions. If you're at Rimini in Jan (very big exhibition), I'll make you a coffee…cos I'm too cheap to buy one 😉

@"Rob666"#p30551 certainly! And, again, I feel many glossed over my continual "its ok to like coffee from the niche" (paraphrase). The video was not meant to diss anyone. I'm happy people love pourovers and light roasts and whatever else on the Niche. I just had not seen a negative review and feel people see Hoffmann, Spro, Buckman, etc, all who drink darker coffees, and conclude the niche does it all. Anyway, again, not my intention to be dismissive! Apologies. thanks for watching!

@"DavecUK"#p30552 I won't be- i'm stuck for a while due to visa issues. But thanks! And, the "comfort zone" was moreso because I had taught the same courses online for 8 months. Doing these courses was the impetus to starting the Youtube. Since everything is off script, it might seem i'm less comfortable, but reality is, the first videos were quasi scripted due to my teaching them so often. Anyway, I knew coming into this some would like what I say and others not! I do, to be sure, consult with electrical engineers and our favorite astrophysicist and chemist (Gagne and Samo) before posting videos. My goal isn't to replicate what you do (I.e. full teardowns)- That's just not as interesting to me; instead, my goal is to give a solid look at a machine's reliability and rough taste profile, with hopefullly the clear spoiler that I have a bias towards lighter roasts, though I am fully calibrated on darker roasts with loads of roasters, green buyers, etc around the world from my decade in coffee. Anyway, I know I come off with strong opinions, and perhaps that is the American way (which I relish). Glad to have open discourse here!

Yeah but Hoffman is probably one if not the most polished coffee presenters on yt. So we edited, but he has a set, and staff and alot of expensive equipment to make that happen.

@"Cuprajake"#p30557 oh absolutely. I was with him on set one day. it is truly impressive the resources he has! I'd love to be able to buy all of my equipment as he does, but sadly, i'm already in a hole financially. I have to come out even soon or my wife is going to kill me. Built the studio in our garage (because i do YT stuff while kids are sleeping since i work during the day) and bought cameras- like $20k of investment. I'm a bit nervous about it all, but i'm having fun.

Hello! I'm Lance Hedrick and I'd like to address some things!

InfamousTuba

MWJB

http://magnatune.com/p/grinder_report.pdf I found the paper it is based on.

It is an interesting test but I would like to see it redone with more modern grinders and a larger variety of roasts. This report came out just at the advent of EK43’s being used and higher extraction being pushed, the largest flat burr was a 75mm mythos which is generally only used for espresso, at least now. I would like to see SSP burrs for the flats, larger conicals, even the new kafatek shurikones, and hybrid burrs like the DRM burrs. A range of roasts levels and coffees would be good as well because nordic light roasts are not used by everyone.

It does make for an interesting read and I am surprised there aren’t more similar tests with data such as this, I would like to try and replicate something like this and see what data I can find

MWJB

InfamousTuba So, it’s not conicals vs flats that’s the question, it’s conicals & most flats vs a very, very tiny sample of esoteric grinders that have only appeared in the last few years (subsequently, rendering the question at the time of asking as moot?).

I tend to think as people seek to ascertain a solid & repeatable difference between flat & conical, the goalposts for testing will just continue to move until the test has no real world value.

EK had been in use for over 25years, at least for 4 of those (prior to this study) by Scott Rao, who has since said he reckons his EK was not typical and 90% of them don’t give similar results. He has also reported high extractions from conical hand & electric grinders (not that I have been able to replicate these).

Cuprajake

Problem is if they did it today and got the same result it would render £4k grinders pointless 😂😂😂

Ernie1

I see such mixed comments on the EK43. Is it regarded highly as an espresso grinder?

Some people seem to use it as a benchmark while others suggest it’s not ideal for espresso.

The nearest shop to me that has one only seem to use theirs for pourover.

InfamousTuba

I just want more robust testing on the hypothesis, a very small sample size of tests on flats versus conicals is not enough data for me. I also think that people who are spending thousands on these esoteric grinders would like some more data on what separates these grinders from others even if the data shows their isn’t a difference.

I don’t think the test has to change much at all I just think it needs repeating by others, like with other scientific research it should be repeated under the same and different conditions.

Scott Rao did say that 90% of EKs don’t come aligned well out of the box, but he went on to say that baristas have been aligning their own EKs to produce the same results he achieved. They are used in the vast majority of speciality cafes and a large number of roasteries it would be strange to completely overlook them

tompoland

InfamousTuba I’m all for data too and that, plus reviews by people I trust (Hendricks Hoffman and experienced forum members) are my best shot at ending up with a grinder I’m happy with.

BUT … (yes, a big ‘but’), the final arbiter is to have the grinder on my bench sitting next to my champion grinder and to pour two espressos back to back and to line them up side by side and sample them, one immediately after then other.

Rinse and repeat three times and I generally know which one is the keeper.

(I appreciate however that not every gains permission from the Household Expenditure Approval Committee for this sort of rather expensive practice so I count myself as one of the lucky few and I intend to continue to acquire new grinders until said committee has, God forbid, a change of Chairwoman.)

wilburpan

InfamousTuba I just want more robust testing on the hypothesis, a very small sample size of tests on flats versus conicals is not enough data for me.

Background — I have a lot of experience with clinical trials from the day job, having enrolled lots of patients on clinical trials, and on the other end designing, running, and analyzing the data from clinical trials.

My takeaway from this study is that there seems to be no difference between conical and flat burrs in a blind tasting situation. If this is the case, it’s unlikely that redoing this test with larger numbers will produce a different result.

It is far more common for a positive result (there is a difference between conical and flat burrs) with small numbers to change to a negative result when done with a larger sample size than it is for a negative result with small numbers to turn positive when it’s done with a larger sample size.

lancehedrick

@DavecUK you see I have you in the time cues on my latest video? You have your grinding! haha

DavecUK

lancehedrick I saw and commented.

Liked the video, nice thorough review, no silliness, got across all the major features….Even got compared to Jack Black by a few wags (not me) 😄. Burr looked like an 83mm Mazzer clone.

Was left with 2 questions. The first one I may have missed, but the second I searched around for.

You tip the beans in when running (not you the grinder)?
How long does it take to grind 18g for Espresso?

P.S. why is the Niche in USA 800 to 2400 usd, the exchange rate makes it 592 usd, plus delivery?

Cuprajake

lancehedrick does grind speed make that much difference. Surely a burr set has an optimal rotation speed or a sweet spot?

Not sure on the new grinder, don’t like the fafing. Do you have a pic of the power supply for it

lancehedrick

DavecUK import taxes! I have also heard from some that niche charges unnecessary charges for international shipping. the prices I give are based both off internet searches and the hordes of DMs and messages I get. Ask someone from australia what a niche costs ha! Or locally in Portugal, there is an inexplicable extra 200 euro charge.

whinmoor85

Cuprajake The charger is like a laptop brick

DavecUK

whinmoor85 That’s fairly large, or the reviewer has very small hands.

whinmoor85

DavecUK Similar thing with the Flair 58. Not really a problem if you can hide it away but not ideal for a kitchen counter top.

DavecUK

I had an SPK38 for review and the power brick was old style laptop size, not large, but I made absolutely saw it and how it would look on the counter. I did 3 videos, espresso, filter and internals. I made absolutely sure it was on the counter all the time….so people could look over my shoulder and envision what they might want to hide away on their counter.

lancehedrick

DavecUK yeah this is smart. I hid it because i’m anal about cleanliness in the videos, but that isn’t very helpful. I did film the power brick. seems it was cut in editing and I didn’t catch it when I reviewed the final cut! My apologies there.

MediumRoastSteam

lancehedrick there is an inexplicable extra 200 euro charge.

That’s VAT for you (or IVA, em português), at 23%, and potentially other import duty. If you add 23% to £500, plus some other taxes, it can quickly go to the €200 you quote.

I’m not sure what’s the practice now, but last time I checked Niche was not removing VAT for exports. But that’s another topic already beaten to exhaustion on another thread in this forum. 👍

I remember shortly after the UK left the EU, Niche costing an extra €200, just because of the above.

tompoland

lancehedrick from australia what a niche costs ha!

Bought mine direct from UK to Australia for AU$1,000 landed over a year ago. But yes, if you want it tomorrow and buy from an Australian retailer like AlternativeBrewing then expect to pay AU$1,800. But I suspect that may be less to do with taxes, that’s more to do with a standard retailer mark up.

Cuprajake

but it works the other way too, buy a kafatek or a weber, £172 shipping make a total of £1400+import so a £1200 item costs 1700 ish

the only one dodging tax seems to be decent who sell a £4k machine but you get vat only on the software value of $500?

MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake - As far as I know, things work slightly different in the US, as each state charges different taxes, which get added to the checkout price. Or, if the item exported outside of the US, you get a customs bill with the taxes due instead. In Europe, prices are often listed including local VAT, and, when exported, the VAT gets removed and then customs will collect the local VAT upon delivery by the currier.

It always amazes me that you go to the US and buy a toothbrush in a pharmacy and see the price of $1.99. And, by the time you go to the till, you’ll be charged, $2.09 (or whatever the local tax is).

Cuprajake

yeah, i can only speak on bringing stuff into the uk, as ive had ice hockey gear from can/usa and also Europe in the past

JHCCoffee

@lancehedrick

Hey Lance. Fantastic video on WDT! Well done and very helpful. I had the right needles, but my motion was moving the grinds around to much. For deep WDT, I have been doing a widening clockwise spiral followed by a narrowing anti-clockwise spiral using 0.35mm needles; about 9 in a 3D printed tool. The anti-clockwise spiral moved the grinds around a fair bit. I then used these same needles for puck raking.

As a result of my potentially flawed technique, I found that a number of my pucks (maybe ⅓, maybe more) had 2 or 3 small holes in the top, which is evidence of channeling. And I have generally not been pleased with my shot taste consistency. Afew decent shots, but many unsatisfactory ones. So I will now test your technique, to see if things improve.

Thanks again for the great video!

I also watched James Hoffman’s video on distribution. While he goes through virtually every option, at the end, he shows what he does, which is pretty close to your WDT technique. Great minds think alike!

Question:

Do I really need a separate WDT tool with 0.25 needles for grooming/raking or is my 0.35mm tool sufficient?

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