InfamousTuba So, it’s not conicals vs flats that’s the question, it’s conicals & most flats vs a very, very tiny sample of esoteric grinders that have only appeared in the last few years (subsequently, rendering the question at the time of asking as moot?).

I tend to think as people seek to ascertain a solid & repeatable difference between flat & conical, the goalposts for testing will just continue to move until the test has no real world value.

EK had been in use for over 25years, at least for 4 of those (prior to this study) by Scott Rao, who has since said he reckons his EK was not typical and 90% of them don’t give similar results. He has also reported high extractions from conical hand & electric grinders (not that I have been able to replicate these).

    I see such mixed comments on the EK43. Is it regarded highly as an espresso grinder?

    Some people seem to use it as a benchmark while others suggest it’s not ideal for espresso.

    The nearest shop to me that has one only seem to use theirs for pourover.

    I just want more robust testing on the hypothesis, a very small sample size of tests on flats versus conicals is not enough data for me. I also think that people who are spending thousands on these esoteric grinders would like some more data on what separates these grinders from others even if the data shows their isn’t a difference.

    I don’t think the test has to change much at all I just think it needs repeating by others, like with other scientific research it should be repeated under the same and different conditions.

    Scott Rao did say that 90% of EKs don’t come aligned well out of the box, but he went on to say that baristas have been aligning their own EKs to produce the same results he achieved. They are used in the vast majority of speciality cafes and a large number of roasteries it would be strange to completely overlook them

    Coffee Roaster. Home: Sage Dual Boiler, Niche Zero, Ode v2 (SSP), 1zpresso ZP6 Work: Eagle One Prima EXP, mahlkonig e80s, Mazzer Philos and lots more

      InfamousTuba I’m all for data too and that, plus reviews by people I trust (Hendricks Hoffman and experienced forum members) are my best shot at ending up with a grinder I’m happy with.

      BUT … (yes, a big ‘but’), the final arbiter is to have the grinder on my bench sitting next to my champion grinder and to pour two espressos back to back and to line them up side by side and sample them, one immediately after then other.

      Rinse and repeat three times and I generally know which one is the keeper.

      (I appreciate however that not every gains permission from the Household Expenditure Approval Committee for this sort of rather expensive practice so I count myself as one of the lucky few and I intend to continue to acquire new grinders until said committee has, God forbid, a change of Chairwoman.)

        lancehedrick I saw and commented.

        Liked the video, nice thorough review, no silliness, got across all the major features….Even got compared to Jack Black by a few wags (not me) 😄. Burr looked like an 83mm Mazzer clone.

        Was left with 2 questions. The first one I may have missed, but the second I searched around for.

        • You tip the beans in when running (not you the grinder)?
        • How long does it take to grind 18g for Espresso?

        P.S. why is the Niche in USA 800 to 2400 usd, the exchange rate makes it 592 usd, plus delivery?

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            lancehedrick does grind speed make that much difference. Surely a burr set has an optimal rotation speed or a sweet spot?

            Not sure on the new grinder, don’t like the fafing. Do you have a pic of the power supply for it

            Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                DavecUK Similar thing with the Flair 58. Not really a problem if you can hide it away but not ideal for a kitchen counter top.

                  I had an SPK38 for review and the power brick was old style laptop size, not large, but I made absolutely saw it and how it would look on the counter. I did 3 videos, espresso, filter and internals. I made absolutely sure it was on the counter all the time….so people could look over my shoulder and envision what they might want to hide away on their counter.

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                    DavecUK import taxes! I have also heard from some that niche charges unnecessary charges for international shipping. the prices I give are based both off internet searches and the hordes of DMs and messages I get. Ask someone from australia what a niche costs ha! Or locally in Portugal, there is an inexplicable extra 200 euro charge.

                        DavecUK yeah this is smart. I hid it because i’m anal about cleanliness in the videos, but that isn’t very helpful. I did film the power brick. seems it was cut in editing and I didn’t catch it when I reviewed the final cut! My apologies there.

                          lancehedrick there is an inexplicable extra 200 euro charge.

                          That’s VAT for you (or IVA, em português), at 23%, and potentially other import duty. If you add 23% to £500, plus some other taxes, it can quickly go to the €200 you quote.

                          I’m not sure what’s the practice now, but last time I checked Niche was not removing VAT for exports. But that’s another topic already beaten to exhaustion on another thread in this forum. 👍

                          I remember shortly after the UK left the EU, Niche costing an extra €200, just because of the above.

                            but it works the other way too, buy a kafatek or a weber, £172 shipping make a total of £1400+import so a £1200 item costs 1700 ish

                            the only one dodging tax seems to be decent who sell a £4k machine but you get vat only on the software value of $500?

                            Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                              Cuprajake - As far as I know, things work slightly different in the US, as each state charges different taxes, which get added to the checkout price. Or, if the item exported outside of the US, you get a customs bill with the taxes due instead. In Europe, prices are often listed including local VAT, and, when exported, the VAT gets removed and then customs will collect the local VAT upon delivery by the currier.

                              It always amazes me that you go to the US and buy a toothbrush in a pharmacy and see the price of $1.99. And, by the time you go to the till, you’ll be charged, $2.09 (or whatever the local tax is).

                                yeah, i can only speak on bringing stuff into the uk, as ive had ice hockey gear from can/usa and also Europe in the past

                                Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                                @lancehedrick

                                Hey Lance. Fantastic video on WDT! Well done and very helpful. I had the right needles, but my motion was moving the grinds around to much. For deep WDT, I have been doing a widening clockwise spiral followed by a narrowing anti-clockwise spiral using 0.35mm needles; about 9 in a 3D printed tool. The anti-clockwise spiral moved the grinds around a fair bit. I then used these same needles for puck raking.

                                As a result of my potentially flawed technique, I found that a number of my pucks (maybe ⅓, maybe more) had 2 or 3 small holes in the top, which is evidence of channeling. And I have generally not been pleased with my shot taste consistency. Afew decent shots, but many unsatisfactory ones. So I will now test your technique, to see if things improve.

                                Thanks again for the great video!

                                I also watched James Hoffman’s video on distribution. While he goes through virtually every option, at the end, he shows what he does, which is pretty close to your WDT technique. Great minds think alike!

                                Question:

                                • Do I really need a separate WDT tool with 0.25 needles for grooming/raking or is my 0.35mm tool sufficient?

                                Two separate WDT tools with 0.1mm variance in needles… do people really do this?