Help! please!

CardinalBiggles

ECM Synchronika, 4 years trouble free, not plumbed in, using bottled water in reservoir

Then water was found pooling under the machine. It was the plastic T connector for the OPV pipes which had melted into a crispy brown mess. The overflow water could have gone anywhere, I replaced the part.

During my repair I also saw some evidence of previous water presence in the corner where the reservoir valve sits. and watermarks on the steel reservoir frame where the plastic water reservoir plugs in. It looked as though water had flowed out of the open corner of the reservoir frame and gathered underneath that corner - water stains and rusty screw heads were visible.

I repaired the valve on the reservoir plastic tank which had a spring that was stuck in the open position. It no longer leaks.

Although I could see no actual water I gave it a week with the covers off to let the air get to it.

I was still getting some gurgling and overflow water through the outlet below the E61 group. Much reduced, though.

A week or two later I turned the ECM on, and 5 mins or so into its warm up it tripped the main relay on the house Consumer Panel.

It did this twice that day,

I had the covers off again, but saw no water leaks, no indication of overheating wiring, There is evidence of deposits on the reservoir/plumbed in switch below the overflow, but this looks to be from the T piece problem, now fixed, and no sign of water around it,

I removed the pressure valve from the service boiler and cleaned out the plunger/seal mechanism. It looked pristine, but I cleaned and replaced it anyway, The ECM seemed to be heating up ok, so I put the covers back on and started it off.

Five minutes or so into warmup it tripped the main relay for the third time.

Can anybody suggest where I should be looking in order to fix this, please? My espresso habit has been left cold turkey for over a week now!

Im a bit anoyed that a cheap 19p plastic part was used in between two hot boilers, and has probably been a major factor in this problem. Especially when you consider the quality of the rest of the machine is top notch,

Thank you in anticipation for any ideas you could share

DavecUK

CardinalBiggles Do you have some good photos of the interior we can see? It could be a number of things and we’d like to save you unnecessary expense.

MediumRoastSteam

CardinalBiggles - does the same happen if you turn the service boiler off right at the start?

DavecUK

Right, I can’t see anything obvious, well apart from one thing. I was wondering if the limit stats had got corroded, with leaking water…but no, they look fine.

The thing I noticed was the photo of the rocker switch, but you say it’s not connected and even if it was it would only be connected to the Gicar box (low voltage probably)

CardinalBiggles A week or two later I turned the ECM on, and 5 mins or so into its warm up it tripped the main relay on the house Consumer Panel.

So lets start be being absolutely clear what tripped. Was it an RCBBO (built in RCM/MCB in a single breaker) ,or MCB for the specific circuit e.g. 13 amp ring. One can trip on load or earth leakage (cureent imbalance), the second only trips on load. Or was it the RCD of the consumer unit that tripped, which may of course be a split load consumer unit with separate RCDs for Kitchen and the rest of the house.

This is important because MCBs will trip out when the machine tried to draw something like 40 amps sustained or 60+ amps instantaneous. e.g. an arc in the machine will easily draw more than 60 amps and trip it out. In UK homes we don’t generally have arc fault interruptors (which help save us from fires)

Why this is important, if you say it’s an RCD, it could be a loose contact….or a major short to earth.

If you say it’s an RCD/RCCBO, then 30 ma of earth leakage (or less if that circuit already has some inductive loads) and she will trip. So a heating element that got a leak to earth in the megohm range will trip out an RCD…but may not trip out an MCB. e.g. the coffee machine that always worked OK in the old place (no RCD), but trips the RCD in the new.

Then a number of simple tests:

Disconnect both sets of heating elements and leave them safe and un shorted, power it on and wait 10 minutes, does it trip out?
Connect the brew service boiler heating element, warm it up, does it trip out?
Connect the steam boiler heating element, warm it up, does it trip out?

This will tell you if any and which heating element has gone bad, or whether it’s some other time dependent fault.

Please report back on what happens and what device was tripping in your fusebox?.

CardinalBiggles

MediumRoastSteam

Belay my last reply! I’ve found the switch, cunningly hidden in plain sight once I removed the drip tray.

I’ll try it tonight! Thanks

CardinalBiggles

Hi MediumRoastSteam, thanks for responding. I don’t know how to do that. HOw would I go about it, please?

MediumRoastSteam

CardinalBiggles on the Pro-700 there’s a switch behind the drip tray. On the syncrhonika, no idea, I’d need to research.

CardinalBiggles

Hi DavecUK, thanks for responding. Great idea! I’ll upload below some pics from my phone

👍

CardinalBiggles

ECM Synchronika, and the T connector that failed in the heat. Replacement part was 19p. Damage to machine..lpriceless

CardinalBiggles

Service Boiler

CardinalBiggles

Brew Boiler connections and side view of machine showing pump and insulated brew boiler

CardinalBiggles

When I took the covers off I noticed evidence of water around the reservior valve, running off into the machine below. I repaired that valve, which was dripping.

This is the plumbed-in water entry to the machine, below that open corner of the reservoir holder

CardinalBiggles

Apologies for the quality of these three. This is where the Reservoir water must have leaked into. There’s framework there but no components.

CardinalBiggles

This is the best shot I could get between the front of the machine and the Brew boiler. And wiring around the Brew boiler. Wiring seems OK?

CardinalBiggles

At the front of the machine with the drip tray removed. The overflow exit is at the top of the first photo. Despite there being a drip tray this overflow spills onto the black front panel, and you can see sediment along the leading edge . The switch is to select between on-board reservoir and direct main water, which isnt fitted on this machine.

CardinalBiggles

Finally, the electrical units on the RH side of the machine looking at it from the front. Also the bastard T connector I fitted. Grrr.

CardinalBiggles

DavecUK

Thanks Dave, this is really useful stuff.

The ECM is connected to a normal mains outlet in the kitchen. It’s been there quite happily for four years, using the same socket. I’ll test the socket with another device, but I think it’s OK

These photos are of my consumer panel in the garage.

1st trip was the big switch for the whole house only, all outlets and lights

2nd trip was the big switch for the whole house and one of the little switches - for lounge plug sockets. Note that the other switches,, including the kitchen sockets, did not specifically trip.

3rd trip I had the lounge devices (sofas and lamp) unplugged, it still tripped the big whole house switch again, outlets and lights

Im confused about the lounge sockets going out in 2, but the ECM tripping in 3 when they were unplugged. We do sometimes get the lounge sockets tripping (little switch) if we turn both sofas on at exactly the same time.

Thanks again

DavecUK

OK I’m not an electrician, but that sort of RCCB (the big switch) with a 100mA+ rating won’t save your life in event of an earth fault through you. You should check with an electrician, but I am pretty sure the RCCB does not provide overcurrent protection either, e.g. in even of a live/neutral short. The 80A I believe refers to how much current it can handle whilst still operating as an RCD. Over that current (even with a transient) and it can damage it permanently and prevent it working correctly

Check with an electrician, but for great protection you have a couple of choices. Ideally change out the RCCB for an 80, or 100A Breaker and replace every MCB with a correctly rated RCCBO. The box has a din rail and although not a cheap fix will give you ultimate protection, with minimum nuisance tripping. The Crabtree RCCBOs would cost you £30 each, an electrician will get them cheaper and might pass some discount to you. If you’re not fussed about having Crabtree ones, as it’s a standard DIN rail fitting, you can get other makes for around £15 each..

The suboptimal, but cheaper solution is an 80/100A breaker again depending on your incoming fuse and a separate RCD rated to 80A and 30mA. If there is space inside the box to fit (not sure their is)…don’t know if they make 80A overcurrent breakers and RCDs combined to act as fusebox circuit breakers.

The above is based on the assumption that you don’t have a separate 80A breaker feeding that fusebox!

I’d strongly recommend you find a good sparky and get some advice, simply because that installation needs some work.

As for the machine, if it’s tripped the MCB anbd then the RCD, it may be a badly blown heating element, direct short, or even a reasonable earth leakage, from what you describe happens.

The more important thing is to get the consumer unit looked at!!

If it helps, this is what I had installed as one of my consumer units

CardinalBiggles

Progress!
Lounge sofas disconnected
Plugged ECM into a different (adjacent) socket, which had just had the TV working successfully in it.
Turned on ECM fascia switch, pump engaged briefly.
Display shows heating commencing
Service boiler switched off
Brew boiler looked fine, got up to 923 degrees without incident, and quite quicklySo
I turned on the Service boiler switch
Instant blackout, whole house, main switch on the consumer panel.

Any thoughts, chaps?

MediumRoastSteam

CardinalBiggles Service boiler switched off
Brew boiler looked fine, got up to 923 degrees without incident, and quite quicklySo
I turned on the Service boiler switch
Instant blackout, whole house, main switch on the consumer panel.

Baldrick - think given the statement above, seems to me the service boiler is at fault here. 👍

CardinalBiggles

@DavecUK

Thanks for that Dave, point noted re the Consumer Unit.

As you were posting I was typing in at the same time, and I’m suspecting the Service boiler element atm.

What’s the best way to determine if it’s gone please?

I’d much rather replace an element than have a purely electrical issue.

And at least the Synchronika has everything reasonably easy to get to. I’m learning a lot about the design of this machine, and the more I learn the more I aopreciate it (plastic T connectors excluded, of course)

Thanks again

Baldrick

CardinalBiggles if you’re able to independently have each element come on then seeing which one blows the RCD would be the easiest.
The best way would be to put a multimeter across the elements to measure the resistance and also check if there is a path to earth.
This doesn’t always show up though, as faults on elements sometimes only surface when under load and heated up. Then you’d need an insulation resistance tester….

Also wish to echo Dave’s excellent advice, get the board looked at. RCDs are there to save your life. Everything else - the MCB’s, fuses in plugs etc are there to protect the cabling in your house - they will NOT protect you from electrocution.

DavecUK

CardinalBiggles As you were posting I was typing in at the same time, and I’m suspecting the Service boiler element atm.

What’s the best way to determine if it’s gone please?

Sounds favourite for the problem….best way, unplug machine, disconnect element check resistance to earth…e.g. element terminal to side of boiler. use megohm scale, or highest one you got. Check resistance of element itself, use 0hm scale or lowest you got, it will probably be 37-40 ish ohms or something.

If you don’t know how to do either of these…buy a new element and at worst you have a spare. When removing element, support boiler and tappy tappy if you can, not torquey torquey, or you will bend pipes. If you can’t get it out, remove boiler and try.

MediumRoastSteam

CardinalBiggles - what water do you use in your machine? Looks, to me, quite a lot of limescale buildup on the broken T connector and where the water leaked ?