Help! please!

CardinalBiggles

When I took the covers off I noticed evidence of water around the reservior valve, running off into the machine below. I repaired that valve, which was dripping.

This is the plumbed-in water entry to the machine, below that open corner of the reservoir holder

CardinalBiggles

Apologies for the quality of these three. This is where the Reservoir water must have leaked into. There’s framework there but no components.

CardinalBiggles

This is the best shot I could get between the front of the machine and the Brew boiler. And wiring around the Brew boiler. Wiring seems OK?

CardinalBiggles

At the front of the machine with the drip tray removed. The overflow exit is at the top of the first photo. Despite there being a drip tray this overflow spills onto the black front panel, and you can see sediment along the leading edge . The switch is to select between on-board reservoir and direct main water, which isnt fitted on this machine.

CardinalBiggles

Finally, the electrical units on the RH side of the machine looking at it from the front. Also the bastard T connector I fitted. Grrr.

DavecUK

Right, I can’t see anything obvious, well apart from one thing. I was wondering if the limit stats had got corroded, with leaking water…but no, they look fine.

The thing I noticed was the photo of the rocker switch, but you say it’s not connected and even if it was it would only be connected to the Gicar box (low voltage probably)

CardinalBiggles A week or two later I turned the ECM on, and 5 mins or so into its warm up it tripped the main relay on the house Consumer Panel.

So lets start be being absolutely clear what tripped. Was it an RCBBO (built in RCM/MCB in a single breaker) ,or MCB for the specific circuit e.g. 13 amp ring. One can trip on load or earth leakage (cureent imbalance), the second only trips on load. Or was it the RCD of the consumer unit that tripped, which may of course be a split load consumer unit with separate RCDs for Kitchen and the rest of the house.

This is important because MCBs will trip out when the machine tried to draw something like 40 amps sustained or 60+ amps instantaneous. e.g. an arc in the machine will easily draw more than 60 amps and trip it out. In UK homes we don’t generally have arc fault interruptors (which help save us from fires)

Why this is important, if you say it’s an RCD, it could be a loose contact….or a major short to earth.

If you say it’s an RCD/RCCBO, then 30 ma of earth leakage (or less if that circuit already has some inductive loads) and she will trip. So a heating element that got a leak to earth in the megohm range will trip out an RCD…but may not trip out an MCB. e.g. the coffee machine that always worked OK in the old place (no RCD), but trips the RCD in the new.

Then a number of simple tests:

Disconnect both sets of heating elements and leave them safe and un shorted, power it on and wait 10 minutes, does it trip out?
Connect the brew service boiler heating element, warm it up, does it trip out?
Connect the steam boiler heating element, warm it up, does it trip out?

This will tell you if any and which heating element has gone bad, or whether it’s some other time dependent fault.

Please report back on what happens and what device was tripping in your fusebox?.

CardinalBiggles

DavecUK

Thanks Dave, this is really useful stuff.

The ECM is connected to a normal mains outlet in the kitchen. It’s been there quite happily for four years, using the same socket. I’ll test the socket with another device, but I think it’s OK

These photos are of my consumer panel in the garage.

1st trip was the big switch for the whole house only, all outlets and lights

2nd trip was the big switch for the whole house and one of the little switches - for lounge plug sockets. Note that the other switches,, including the kitchen sockets, did not specifically trip.

3rd trip I had the lounge devices (sofas and lamp) unplugged, it still tripped the big whole house switch again, outlets and lights

Im confused about the lounge sockets going out in 2, but the ECM tripping in 3 when they were unplugged. We do sometimes get the lounge sockets tripping (little switch) if we turn both sofas on at exactly the same time.

Thanks again

MediumRoastSteam

CardinalBiggles on the Pro-700 there’s a switch behind the drip tray. On the syncrhonika, no idea, I’d need to research.

CardinalBiggles

MediumRoastSteam

Belay my last reply! I’ve found the switch, cunningly hidden in plain sight once I removed the drip tray.

I’ll try it tonight! Thanks

DavecUK

OK I’m not an electrician, but that sort of RCCB (the big switch) with a 100mA+ rating won’t save your life in event of an earth fault through you. You should check with an electrician, but I am pretty sure the RCCB does not provide overcurrent protection either, e.g. in even of a live/neutral short. The 80A I believe refers to how much current it can handle whilst still operating as an RCD. Over that current (even with a transient) and it can damage it permanently and prevent it working correctly

Check with an electrician, but for great protection you have a couple of choices. Ideally change out the RCCB for an 80, or 100A Breaker and replace every MCB with a correctly rated RCCBO. The box has a din rail and although not a cheap fix will give you ultimate protection, with minimum nuisance tripping. The Crabtree RCCBOs would cost you £30 each, an electrician will get them cheaper and might pass some discount to you. If you’re not fussed about having Crabtree ones, as it’s a standard DIN rail fitting, you can get other makes for around £15 each..

The suboptimal, but cheaper solution is an 80/100A breaker again depending on your incoming fuse and a separate RCD rated to 80A and 30mA. If there is space inside the box to fit (not sure their is)…don’t know if they make 80A overcurrent breakers and RCDs combined to act as fusebox circuit breakers.

The above is based on the assumption that you don’t have a separate 80A breaker feeding that fusebox!

I’d strongly recommend you find a good sparky and get some advice, simply because that installation needs some work.

As for the machine, if it’s tripped the MCB anbd then the RCD, it may be a badly blown heating element, direct short, or even a reasonable earth leakage, from what you describe happens.

The more important thing is to get the consumer unit looked at!!

If it helps, this is what I had installed as one of my consumer units

CardinalBiggles

Progress!
Lounge sofas disconnected
Plugged ECM into a different (adjacent) socket, which had just had the TV working successfully in it.
Turned on ECM fascia switch, pump engaged briefly.
Display shows heating commencing
Service boiler switched off
Brew boiler looked fine, got up to 923 degrees without incident, and quite quicklySo
I turned on the Service boiler switch
Instant blackout, whole house, main switch on the consumer panel.

Any thoughts, chaps?

MediumRoastSteam

CardinalBiggles Service boiler switched off
Brew boiler looked fine, got up to 923 degrees without incident, and quite quicklySo
I turned on the Service boiler switch
Instant blackout, whole house, main switch on the consumer panel.

Baldrick - think given the statement above, seems to me the service boiler is at fault here. 👍

CardinalBiggles

@DavecUK

Thanks for that Dave, point noted re the Consumer Unit.

As you were posting I was typing in at the same time, and I’m suspecting the Service boiler element atm.

What’s the best way to determine if it’s gone please?

I’d much rather replace an element than have a purely electrical issue.

And at least the Synchronika has everything reasonably easy to get to. I’m learning a lot about the design of this machine, and the more I learn the more I aopreciate it (plastic T connectors excluded, of course)

Thanks again

Baldrick

CardinalBiggles if you’re able to independently have each element come on then seeing which one blows the RCD would be the easiest.
The best way would be to put a multimeter across the elements to measure the resistance and also check if there is a path to earth.
This doesn’t always show up though, as faults on elements sometimes only surface when under load and heated up. Then you’d need an insulation resistance tester….

Also wish to echo Dave’s excellent advice, get the board looked at. RCDs are there to save your life. Everything else - the MCB’s, fuses in plugs etc are there to protect the cabling in your house - they will NOT protect you from electrocution.

DavecUK

CardinalBiggles As you were posting I was typing in at the same time, and I’m suspecting the Service boiler element atm.

What’s the best way to determine if it’s gone please?

Sounds favourite for the problem….best way, unplug machine, disconnect element check resistance to earth…e.g. element terminal to side of boiler. use megohm scale, or highest one you got. Check resistance of element itself, use 0hm scale or lowest you got, it will probably be 37-40 ish ohms or something.

If you don’t know how to do either of these…buy a new element and at worst you have a spare. When removing element, support boiler and tappy tappy if you can, not torquey torquey, or you will bend pipes. If you can’t get it out, remove boiler and try.

MediumRoastSteam

CardinalBiggles - what water do you use in your machine? Looks, to me, quite a lot of limescale buildup on the broken T connector and where the water leaked ?

Baldrick

MediumRoastSteam haha quite right too!

CardinalBiggles

DavecUK

Hi Dave, and thanks for your help.

I’ve had very serious illness in my immediate family, compounded with difficulty getting hospital treatment at the moment, so my ECM had to take a back seat until we had that under control.

But yesterday I took my Service boiler element out, expecting it was the problem, and did a continuity test on the element terminals as per your advice. I got 36 Ohms resistance, so I’m guessing that this is an OK functioning part after all.

Is there anything you could advise please?

Elcarajillo

On photo 13, check the connections , the case to the control box looks as if it has been slightly overheated ?

CardinalBiggles

Thanks for all this really helpful advice. I’m definitely missing my Flat Whites atm!

It’s a fair comment on the limescale. We have terrible water here for scale, and people go through kettles at a rapid rate of knots. I’ve been using bottled water via the reservoir, but clearly there are limescale deposits around the machine. When I sort out the boiler I’ll be giving the whole machine a good clean out and descale, then plumbing it in with a high spec water filter. The BWT stuff seems to have a good reputation, but I’m open to other suggestions, recommendations and advice.

Thanks again for all of your support, and I wish you all a very Happy, Healthy and caffeinated New Year!!

LMSC

CardinalBiggles Not a super fan of these filters. It’s more of a faff to keep checking their efficiency plus the replacement costs - I have no idea what they cost, how often you replace them and how good they are vs other safer choices.

I do not know what bottled water you use. Please have a look at this thread, which also has @Rob1’s excel.

Most of us would use RO or distilled water; add bicarbonate to address alkalinity. We are not suggesting you should go this route, but this is something for you to think and address before you start using the machine.