So my venture into real coffee is now about 2 weeks old… My equipment sits at: Moka Pot French Press Hand grinder Real beans :) Stand-alone milk frother and handheld version. TBH so far it’s a step up - just the smell when grinding the beans puts a smile on my face. So next steps - where should my first foray into espresso be. I was considering getting a picopresso or flair as a basic way to make espresso… though my end goal would be a proper machine - definitively with the milk steamer / wand as the milk frother is not great. Ideally I would like to buy once learn and enjoy - without the chopping and changing through multiple machines :) - famous last words huh. A lever machine looks tempting - I like the more manual approach - rather than just pushing a button.. the process being as much fun / interest as the end result. I also take the view of buy well but once - so happy to wait for the right purchase rather than jump at the first option. Right best stop here before I carry on rambling :) Advice and opinions welcome Thanks Matt

@"MattH"#p34223 - hello there. Definitely the best way to save money is to buy what you want outright. The problem is, sometimes you don’t know what you want, and want to try things on. What’s your budget for a machine and grinder? What’s your consumption like? How many coffees (and what types) per day/week? If you want to save money, it’s always good to buy second hand and then sell it on for the same price or small loss. If you buy it new, my advice would be to buy something that you want, and then sell it on - but do bear in mind you’d likely lose money on that. Reading your post above…. I’d skip the Flair and aim for your “end goal”. Take a look at the classifieds if you want to buy second hand. We can tell you more once we know your budget.

Agree with the above, spent a small fortune moving from grinder to grinder and machine to machine I'd say a great setup is going to cost £1600 ish new with warranty. Used deals can be had and may get you down to around the 1300 mark, me I'd try to spend the extra just for the security of a warranty

@"MattH"#p34223 Two more questions if I may, Matt: 1. Budget - you can get semi-decent espresso for £200 (or less - if you want a DeLonghi Dedica for free, come over and pick it up from me; all you need is a £20 non-pressurised basket, adjust the OPV to 9.5 bar, and you are set), or you can easily spend many thousands. 2. What do you want from an espresso machine? Multiple pours in quick succession because you'd often drink espresso with guests? Or one coffee a day for yourself? Maximum consistency vs. 'manual tuning'? Minimal fuss vs. complex set-up?

Hi, wow that was quick :) So grinder wise I have the Mazzer Omega so will use that to start with (though I realise the espresso grinds may get old quick on the arms !) - but in the future I would look for probably a niche zero - or something like the Mazzer major in the classifieds (if I could find somewhere to put a machine that size!.) Consumption wise currently its 1/2 3 cup Mokkas as milk drinks (latte) each day - or a large french press. Over the weekend I was using the 10 cup moka to make drinks for the family - though that would be the exception not the rule. I think if I had an espresso it would be 2/3 at a time - probably twice a day (not all for me I might add…) Budget wise I would say 2k is the limit - oh and I would want what I buy to be as beautiful as it is functional.. (bit like my taste in hifi) From the last questions @"CoyoteOldMan"#p34226 I would say consistency is key - I dont mind learning and tweaking if needed but I would not want to be constantly changing aspects just to get out a good cup. For me I want to make good coffee- but not spend hours each time whilst the missus just looks on and chuckles at me :) Oh and thank you for the kind offer - thats very generous. Thanks Matt

I think a good place to start that will not break the bank would be with a manual machine like a Flair. Lance Hedrick, who contributes to this forum, did a nice video about an inexpensive way to get into espresso on a budget. With the recommended setup you can make top notch coffee if you are willing to learn and put in some effort initially. https://youtu.be/-FP9Tnl3OFQ

Your grinder is top notch so you can stick with that. A Flair 58 would be my nomination. Worth the extra $ (over the other Flair models) to have predictiable and stable temperature.

I'd jump right to the Bianca End game, reliable, job done No messing with manual lever machines etc and a pretty machine.

> @"MattH"#p34227 Consumption wise currently its ½ 3 cup Mokkas as milk drinks (latte) each day > @"MattH"#p34227 Budget wise I would say 2k is the limit > @"MattH"#p34227 So grinder wise I have the Mazzer Omega You have a great budget. If I were you: - go for the Lelit Bianca as @"Cuprajake"#p34237 says. That will pretty much maximise your budget and you’ll have a beautiful machine. You can then upgrade the grinder at some point if you think that’s worth the while. - OR… go for the Lelit Elizabeth or ACS Minima if you want to have some spare spending power and fancy adding the Niche to the equation straight away. I’d stay away from the Flair as suggested above if that’s not what you would like on the long term and if you enjoy milk drinks. With the Bianca, bear in mind it requires some periodic maintenance to lube the cam lever. With the Elizabeth or the Minima, that’s not required as the group is solenoid operated. There’s a reviews section in this forum where you can find some detailed reviews of the machines above. Good luck with your decision making, and ask away! 👍

Already some great advice in this thread and having owned a Bianca I’d also recommend it. Two things worth considering; Hand grinding for espresso gets very old very quickly. It takes a lot longer and a lot more effort to grind at espresso levels of fine. Making good espresso as a beginner can be frustrating and time consuming (but ultimately very rewarding) and if you have to hand grind every wasted shot, it’ll add to the frustration. Secondly, some people just don’t take to espresso making at home. That’s totally fine, ask most baristas and they’ll say they don’t even bother and just make brew at home. It quickly becomes an enjoyable and straightforward process if you stick with it but plenty of people get put off by the aforementioned frustration or the mess that *can* be made or the maintenance. If that ends up being the case, you’ll want a machine that holds its value for resale. Machines like the Bianca will do, machines like a Sage probably not so much. That’s not necessarily a comment on the quality of the machine (I’ve not owned one so can’t comment) rather it’s a very popular beginner machine so there tends to be a fair few being resold. If your budget is concrete, a Lelit Elizabeth and Niche would tick all the functional boxes (with the bonus of being able to grind for brew as well). If there’s room, the Bianca is a lovely machine.

Thanks all - plenty to go read up on! This will not be a rushed purchase so time to do proper research 👍 Cheers Matt

Where to start..

CoyoteOldMan

The others have said pretty much what I wanted to say already… so I’ll add something out of left field:

If you are keen on a lever, why not the Argos? It is untested, true, and delivery may take a while, but it seems to be very well engineered, and at $850 + shipping and taxes it would leave you ample budget for grinder, water softening and accessories.

https://www.odysseyespresso.com/shop/argos-lever-espresso-machine

wilburpan

MattH This is going to be an outlier recommendation, but since I seem to be the only one here with a 9Barista, here goes.

I’ll suggest a 9Barista as a place to start. The reasons are (1) you have a moka pot, so the 9Barista workflow will be very familiar, (2) you seem to like the idea of a manual machine, (3) given the options you’re considering, it seems like space might be an issue, and the 9Barista certainly takes up very little space. The 9Barista is the first and only espresso machine that I have, so it’s completely feasible to have that as your only method of making espresso. We make two shots of espresso every morning with it, one for me, and one for my wife.

There’s also one non-obvious advantage to a 9Barista. With the 9Barista, the only variables for dialing espresso is the grind and dose. That may seem limiting compared to all the other things you can control with a conventional espresso machine, but my experience has been that having only those two variables really taught me a lot about how to adjust the espresso making process to get the result I want.

There’s a video I made on using the 9Barista in the Knowedgebase, which hopefully will give you an idea of what it’s like to use one.

MattH

Evening, thought I would post a response - lots of useful info in the thread to ponder over.

wilburpan I have seen and considered the 9barista, its a lovely looking bit of kit - though my only issue of course is the lack of steamed milk :) - and tbh for the money I would rather save that towards my first machine.

So from browsing the forum the topic of water comes up quite a but - and living in Kent I am in hard water hell. I do have a water softener plumbed into the house (though you are not meant to drink the softened water - and we have a separate tap which just has a active carbon filter… which probably needs changing)

Therefore its something I will need to consider/plan for or at least make sure I have a good cleaning regime.

I have spent way to long browsing youtube etc looking at various reviews/videos about lots of machines. The Bianca does seem to sit in a nice sweet spot of functionality/looks. I did also see the Profitec P600 (which in the Uk seem to come with the flow controls prefitted) - thought I understand its a different pump setup to the Bianca but seems to have a slightly better build.

Stylewise I serious loved the La Marzocco Linea Mini/Micro - and then lost all interest when I googled the price - outside my budget - but love the aethestic.

Besides the research/browsing there has been a constant flow of moka pot coffees - its become a bit of a experiment trying the different coffees I have (some Rave, Ki Coffee - local roaster - and have some Django on the way) and trying to figure out the best way to grind them with the Omega. Not sure I have made much progress - but I am trying to keep the volume of water and coffee constant (160/18) and then adjust the grind size to see it turns out.

TBH I will not lie but the coffee at least to my tastebuds currently all seems quite similar and I have been caught out by not grabbing the pot before the last dregs get pulled.

Tonights attempt will be with a Rave Swiss Decaf - thought that would be better for the evenings :)

With regards to grind settings - is there a sort of graded start point for different roasts ?

ie. Dark roasts usually a bit coarser than a medium, does using decaff require something different - or is it totally coffee bean/roast specific.

For the Mazzer the grind level in the manual has a range of

4-7 Espresso

7-9 Moka

9-11 Filter

11-13 French Press

From some videos of the mazzer in action they seem to end up in the very low end of the ranges - so I have been experimenting between 6-7 - trying to find a sweet spot so its not bitter or overdone.

Now one thing I have learnt is that milk fixes almost anything - so if it is bitter etc then its not a total loss.

With regards to the Mazzer Omega hand grinder - though this is all I have owned - its a lovely well engineered piece.

Very easy to clean out - does not lose your settings - feels good in the hand - and its not a burden to use - though I am not doing very fine espresso grinds.

I do get some retention around the burr exit - and a dusting will sit in the cup after tipping out. I assume this is where the light spray of water on the beans before grinding may help ?

Lastly I have been working on my milk frothing using the machine from amazon on the lowest setting so it basically warms up the milk so I can use the handheld to work it into some thing not latte art ready - but it does mix in smoothly without too thick a layer of foam… so progress there 😁

Cheers

Matt

CoyoteOldMan

MattH a dusting will sit in the cup after tipping out. I assume this is where the light spray of water on the beans before grinding may help

Yes, but you then need to dry the grinder. I’d rather give it a couple of sharp taps, which on mine seem to dislodge pretty much everything - certainly with less than 0.1 grams left in the grinder.

wilburpan

MattH wilburpan I have seen and considered the 9barista, its a lovely looking bit of kit - though my only issue of course is the lack of steamed milk :) - and tbh for the money I would rather save that towards my first machine.

I did think about that before posting, and decided to go for it since you said you already had a milk frother. 😄

I’ll take one more shot, since you mentioned having hard water and the cleanup and maintenance of an espresso machine. (I’ll also add that in my opinion, a 9Barista is very much an espresso machine, as it does what conventional espresso machines can do.) I have very hard water where I live as well. Descaling a 9Barista is trivially easy. To do this, I dissolve 0.5g of citric acid in 120 ml of water, put that in the 9Barista, and put it on the heat. One extraction later, and the 9Barista is clean as a whistle. Rinse everything, do one more extraction with fresh water, and you’re done.

MattH

wilburpan Funny enough after writing the above I have spent a good time watching various vids on YouTube about the 9barista again…..

MattH

A quick update.. still trying various coffees,grinds and amounts with the moka pot. Besides that lots of browsing on various espresso machines.. though from a price/features point of view the Bianca seems to hit the sweetspot.

The 9Barista remains a interesting idea - I just wish it could be a quicker process to complete more than one shot.

I have bought something new to try which is the nanfoamer. The milk frother I am using does not incorporate the milk enough - and it does not seem to get that hot in the process.

So now I am heating the milk in the microwave and then using the nanofoamer to froth.

I have only tried it a couple of times - the superfine screen seems to work well - and the motor makes short work of the process. I need to still work out the best timings as I did get carried away last night and had a large pillow of foam by the end.

It does seem to work better than the standard wire head hand frothers (but it does cost 5 times as much).

I have also noticed that stock of espresso machines ‘ Flair etc seem in short supply in the UK - Bella Barista has loads out of stock.. not sure I can find a Flair for sale in the UK (unless you want the nano press). Is this a regular occurrence at this time of year before new models/restocks arrive? Luckily I am not ready to shop… yet

Cheers

Matt

wilburpan

MattH The 9Barista remains a interesting idea - I just wish it could be a quicker process to complete more than one shot.

How quickly do you want to pull a second shot? It takes me about 6 minutes from pouring the first espresso to pouring a second one.

MattH

That sounds pretty quick.. I assume you cool the lower chamber under the tap and then release the pressure before separating and refilling ?

wilburpan

MattH Right — I cool the 9Barista under cold water, and streamline the process by starting the water heating process for the second shot, and then grinding and putting the top on while the water is heating up.

I once timed myself doing back-to-back shots with the 9Barista. I wasn’t rushing to set a record — I wanted to see what the real-world experience would be.

After pouring the first espresso, I started my stopwatch. I went to the sink and ran cold water over the 9Barista until it was cool enough to take apart the three sections. I released the safety valve, rinsed out the bottom and middle sections, and dried them off with a towel. I filled the bottom reservoir with water, screwed the middle section on, put it on the stove, and turned the heat on.

While the water for the second espresso was heating up, I popped the basket out of the top section, took the puck screen out, and knocked the puck out. I cleaned the top part, the basket, and the puck screen, and dried them off with a towel.

Then I measured out the coffee beans for the second shot and ground them, I filled the basket, tamped, put the puck screen on, and attached the top part to the middle and bottom sections that were on the stove.

At this point my stopwatch was at 5 minutes 24 seconds. I was close to when the water would be boiling, as I could see bubbles under the top of the middle section as I was attaching the top section on. (This doesn’t always happen. Since I did this timed run, I have a new grinder that’s faster — 10 seconds instead of 35 seconds for grinding — and so I can get the top section on quicker. This won’t affect the total time for the back-to-back shot, just this part of the process.)

Espresso started coming out 17 seconds later. The extraction time was 29 seconds.

So the total time from starting to cool off the 9Barista right after pouring the first shot to finishing the extraction for the second shot was 6 minutes 10 seconds.

Given how close the water was to boiling when I attached the top section to the middle and bottom sections, my sense is that the main bottleneck from one shot to the next is the time it takes for the water to heat up. So washing out the middle and bottom sections first, and then getting a headstart on heating the water for the second shot is a really good move.

In my experience, the workflow for doing back-to-back shots is pretty straightforward, and if you do this on a regular basis, I think anyone can get it down to 6-½ minutes or less.

-Mac

If you can collect from Gosport I have very reliable Sage Barista Express you could have for £200. I’m emigrating to Spain tomorrow night and I’m buying a Bianca when I arrive.

MattH

-Mac thanks for the offer - but I am not rushing into any purchases.

Good luck with move abroad!

CoyoteOldMan

-Mac Safe travels!

MattH

So continuing on… currently I am working through Rave Italian and Signature blends - along with a Rave Swiss Decaff.

I do have a couple of other brands coffee which I picked up on one of the offers mentioned here (which for now has totally evaded me)

In my research which seems to involve every coffee related youtube video - and a few (alot) of the machine based threads here.. I am also leaning towards the smaller simpler end of machine.

Though the Bianca would cover everything you could every need - I am now also looking at the simpler models.

So both the Mara X and Profitec 400 are also possibilities. I wonder if I need all the bells and whistles and instead just need a simple workflow to make good coffee (and anything to stop me continously tinkering)

Whilst I deliberate (and what for stock to hit the UK again) I am also looking at improving my moka pots - I have been looking to buy a E&B Lab moka competition filter - which basically shrinks the holes in the filter. It costs about 14-20 euros for the 3 cup version - but try as I might if I want to buy one here it will cost about £40…

The joys of Brexit.. I did find it on a spanish site but they wanted 25 euros postage for a filter… very sad. Might have to wait until I am next on holiday in Europe to pick oneup :)

MediumRoastSteam

MattH I wonder if I need all the bells and whistles and instead just need a simple workflow to make good coffee (and anything to stop me continously tinkering)

You can make good coffee with a V60 which costs about £10. So you ask: why bother with fancy machines? It depends what you want. With the MaraX, you can make excellent coffee, same with the Pro-400. The Bianca has a quiet and rotary pump - which doesn’t impact the quality of the coffee. But it has a flow control valve, and allows you to have a fine control of the brew temperature and steam temperature, along with some pre-infusion features.

I don’t remember which machine you have, but upgrading is a very complex decision. I myself found slight overwhelming when upgraded from my Gaggia Classic.

Ultimately, find what you want and plan ahead. The worst possible outcome is that you to for the Pro-400 and then start wondering if, for a given coffee, you’d have been better off with some of the features of the Bianca.

MattH

MediumRoastSteam Currently nothing other than a hand grinder, nanofoamer/milk frother and a few moka pots :)

Thanks

Matt

MediumRoastSteam

MattH - not sure whereabouts you are, but there’s a V Evo listed for £1,600. It’s a big machine… Bargain of the century.

EDIT: I just checked the advert again (9 hours later) and the post has been deleted. 🤷

MattH

MediumRoastSteam Unfortunately the opposite end of the country down in Kent on this occasion.

Thanks for the head up 👍

CoyoteOldMan

MattH IF you are interested, there are members with an Evo nearer to you (me for example - near Oxford). You’d be welcome to see the machine and try it - if it ‘works’ you can then think about a trip to Newcastle…

Ernie1

It’s worth pointing out the joys of ownership factor and other aspects which don’t necessarily impact the quality of the coffee and can factor differently for different people.

Aesthetics being the obvious one.

The rotary pump is also mentioned above. There’s a significant difference in volume, some people could literally not care less, for some they couldn’t imagine going back to a vibration pump.

Maintenance. An E61 machine needs regular minor disassembly and lubrication. It’s not a big job by any means but it’s a job nonetheless.

Dual-boiler. This is a bit more of a functional one. If you drink a lot of milk drinks I’d personally say it’s almost imperative that you go dual boiler for efficiency and temperature stability when steaming milk.

It’s an expensive purchase and there are arguably more factors than just ‘great coffee’ which most of the available machines are ultimately capable of.

It’s how I ended up with a Linea Mini. On paper it does less than the Bianca I had which is an incredibly capable endgame machine but I enjoy owning and using the Linea more.

MattH

Ernie1 Totally agree hence why I am not rushing this - and probably why I bought the Mazzer Omega - not the cheapest hand grinder but the fit, finish and construction give me pleasure when using it. It’s easy to dismantle and there is not fiddling around with resetting to zero etc once its been cleaned.

The same points stand for me around hifi - its got to sound great (which most hifi does) but its got to look great as its part of my room. (Interesting I have realised that my hifi is Italian as well :) )

From my browsing the Linea mini/micro are visually right up my street - in fact I did click eagerly when I saw Lance’s video on the micro - and then baulked a bit at the cost.

But if I had the budget it would be up there on the list from how it looks and is built (and in terms of the micro size wise for my kitchen it would be perfect) Not sure I would ever look at the large lever machines purely because of the space needed. Think I would have to have a dedicated coffee island to manage something like that.

Reading the thread on the Nirva - thats another beautiful machine (and I love the colours and side panel options).

Maybe I will have a win on the lotto and then I would not need to think too hard :)

Thanks

Matt

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