Hi,

wow that was quick :)

So grinder wise I have the Mazzer Omega so will use that to start with (though I realise the espresso grinds may get old quick on the arms !) - but in the future I would look for probably a niche zero - or something like the Mazzer major in the classifieds (if I could find somewhere to put a machine that size!.)

Consumption wise currently its ½ 3 cup Mokkas as milk drinks (latte) each day - or a large french press. Over the weekend I was using the 10 cup moka to make drinks for the family - though that would be the exception not the rule.

I think if I had an espresso it would be ⅔ at a time - probably twice a day (not all for me I might add…)

Budget wise I would say 2k is the limit - oh and I would want what I buy to be as beautiful as it is functional.. (bit like my taste in hifi)

From the last questions CoyoteOldMan I would say consistency is key - I dont mind learning and tweaking if needed but I would not want to be constantly changing aspects just to get out a good cup. For me I want to make good coffee- but not spend hours each time whilst the missus just looks on and chuckles at me :)

Oh and thank you for the kind offer - thats very generous.

Thanks

Matt

      I think a good place to start that will not break the bank would be with a manual machine like a Flair. Lance Hedrick, who contributes to this forum, did a nice video about an inexpensive way to get into espresso on a budget. With the recommended setup you can make top notch coffee if you are willing to learn and put in some effort initially.

      Your grinder is top notch so you can stick with that.

      A Flair 58 would be my nomination. Worth the extra $ (over the other Flair models) to have predictiable and stable temperature.

      I’d jump right to the Bianca

      End game, reliable, job done

      No messing with manual lever machines etc and a pretty machine.

      Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

        MattH Consumption wise currently its ½ 3 cup Mokkas as milk drinks (latte) each day

        MattH Budget wise I would say 2k is the limit

        MattH So grinder wise I have the Mazzer Omega

        You have a great budget. If I were you:

        • go for the Lelit Bianca as Cuprajake says. That will pretty much maximise your budget and you’ll have a beautiful machine. You can then upgrade the grinder at some point if you think that’s worth the while.
        • OR… go for the Lelit Elizabeth or ACS Minima if you want to have some spare spending power and fancy adding the Niche to the equation straight away.

        I’d stay away from the Flair as suggested above if that’s not what you would like on the long term and if you enjoy milk drinks.

        With the Bianca, bear in mind it requires some periodic maintenance to lube the cam lever.

        With the Elizabeth or the Minima, that’s not required as the group is solenoid operated.

        There’s a reviews section in this forum where you can find some detailed reviews of the machines above.

        Good luck with your decision making, and ask away! 👍

                Already some great advice in this thread and having owned a Bianca I’d also recommend it.

                Two things worth considering;

                Hand grinding for espresso gets very old very quickly. It takes a lot longer and a lot more effort to grind at espresso levels of fine. Making good espresso as a beginner can be frustrating and time consuming (but ultimately very rewarding) and if you have to hand grind every wasted shot, it’ll add to the frustration.

                Secondly, some people just don’t take to espresso making at home. That’s totally fine, ask most baristas and they’ll say they don’t even bother and just make brew at home. It quickly becomes an enjoyable and straightforward process if you stick with it but plenty of people get put off by the aforementioned frustration or the mess that can be made or the maintenance.

                If that ends up being the case, you’ll want a machine that holds its value for resale. Machines like the Bianca will do, machines like a Sage probably not so much. That’s not necessarily a comment on the quality of the machine (I’ve not owned one so can’t comment) rather it’s a very popular beginner machine so there tends to be a fair few being resold.

                If your budget is concrete, a Lelit Elizabeth and Niche would tick all the functional boxes (with the bonus of being able to grind for brew as well). If there’s room, the Bianca is a lovely machine.

                Thanks all - plenty to go read up on!

                This will not be a rushed purchase so time to do proper research 👍

                Cheers

                Matt

                You are already spoiled for choices. Please include filtered water in your set up. There is no point spending thousands without addressing a good water to feed the machine.

                BTW, welcome to our forum.

                I was in your position a couple of years ago and decided on the Bianca. It’s an end game machine for me.

                But … I was sorely tempted by the Elizabeth, for its compact size , small boilers, quick heat up time.

                It was just the looks that persuaded it for me, I liked E61 look.

                The others have said pretty much what I wanted to say already… so I’ll add something out of left field:

                If you are keen on a lever, why not the Argos? It is untested, true, and delivery may take a while, but it seems to be very well engineered, and at $850 + shipping and taxes it would leave you ample budget for grinder, water softening and accessories.

                https://www.odysseyespresso.com/shop/argos-lever-espresso-machine

                MattH This is going to be an outlier recommendation, but since I seem to be the only one here with a 9Barista, here goes.

                I’ll suggest a 9Barista as a place to start. The reasons are (1) you have a moka pot, so the 9Barista workflow will be very familiar, (2) you seem to like the idea of a manual machine, (3) given the options you’re considering, it seems like space might be an issue, and the 9Barista certainly takes up very little space. The 9Barista is the first and only espresso machine that I have, so it’s completely feasible to have that as your only method of making espresso. We make two shots of espresso every morning with it, one for me, and one for my wife.

                There’s also one non-obvious advantage to a 9Barista. With the 9Barista, the only variables for dialing espresso is the grind and dose. That may seem limiting compared to all the other things you can control with a conventional espresso machine, but my experience has been that having only those two variables really taught me a lot about how to adjust the espresso making process to get the result I want.

                There’s a video I made on using the 9Barista in the Knowedgebase, which hopefully will give you an idea of what it’s like to use one.

                    4 days later

                    Evening, thought I would post a response - lots of useful info in the thread to ponder over.

                    wilburpan I have seen and considered the 9barista, its a lovely looking bit of kit - though my only issue of course is the lack of steamed milk :) - and tbh for the money I would rather save that towards my first machine.

                    So from browsing the forum the topic of water comes up quite a but - and living in Kent I am in hard water hell. I do have a water softener plumbed into the house (though you are not meant to drink the softened water - and we have a separate tap which just has a active carbon filter… which probably needs changing)

                    Therefore its something I will need to consider/plan for or at least make sure I have a good cleaning regime.

                    I have spent way to long browsing youtube etc looking at various reviews/videos about lots of machines. The Bianca does seem to sit in a nice sweet spot of functionality/looks. I did also see the Profitec P600 (which in the Uk seem to come with the flow controls prefitted) - thought I understand its a different pump setup to the Bianca but seems to have a slightly better build.

                    Stylewise I serious loved the La Marzocco Linea Mini/Micro - and then lost all interest when I googled the price - outside my budget - but love the aethestic.

                    Besides the research/browsing there has been a constant flow of moka pot coffees - its become a bit of a experiment trying the different coffees I have (some Rave, Ki Coffee - local roaster - and have some Django on the way) and trying to figure out the best way to grind them with the Omega. Not sure I have made much progress - but I am trying to keep the volume of water and coffee constant (160/18) and then adjust the grind size to see it turns out.

                    TBH I will not lie but the coffee at least to my tastebuds currently all seems quite similar and I have been caught out by not grabbing the pot before the last dregs get pulled.

                    Tonights attempt will be with a Rave Swiss Decaf - thought that would be better for the evenings :)

                    With regards to grind settings - is there a sort of graded start point for different roasts ?

                    ie. Dark roasts usually a bit coarser than a medium, does using decaff require something different - or is it totally coffee bean/roast specific.

                    For the Mazzer the grind level in the manual has a range of

                    4-7 Espresso

                    7-9 Moka

                    9-11 Filter

                    11-13 French Press

                    From some videos of the mazzer in action they seem to end up in the very low end of the ranges - so I have been experimenting between 6-7 - trying to find a sweet spot so its not bitter or overdone.

                    Now one thing I have learnt is that milk fixes almost anything - so if it is bitter etc then its not a total loss.

                    With regards to the Mazzer Omega hand grinder - though this is all I have owned - its a lovely well engineered piece.

                    Very easy to clean out - does not lose your settings - feels good in the hand - and its not a burden to use - though I am not doing very fine espresso grinds.

                    I do get some retention around the burr exit - and a dusting will sit in the cup after tipping out. I assume this is where the light spray of water on the beans before grinding may help ?

                    Lastly I have been working on my milk frothing using the machine from amazon on the lowest setting so it basically warms up the milk so I can use the handheld to work it into some thing not latte art ready - but it does mix in smoothly without too thick a layer of foam… so progress there 😁

                    Cheers

                    Matt

                        MattH a dusting will sit in the cup after tipping out. I assume this is where the light spray of water on the beans before grinding may help

                        Yes, but you then need to dry the grinder. I’d rather give it a couple of sharp taps, which on mine seem to dislodge pretty much everything - certainly with less than 0.1 grams left in the grinder.

                          MattH wilburpan I have seen and considered the 9barista, its a lovely looking bit of kit - though my only issue of course is the lack of steamed milk :) - and tbh for the money I would rather save that towards my first machine.

                          I did think about that before posting, and decided to go for it since you said you already had a milk frother. 😄

                          I’ll take one more shot, since you mentioned having hard water and the cleanup and maintenance of an espresso machine. (I’ll also add that in my opinion, a 9Barista is very much an espresso machine, as it does what conventional espresso machines can do.) I have very hard water where I live as well. Descaling a 9Barista is trivially easy. To do this, I dissolve 0.5g of citric acid in 120 ml of water, put that in the 9Barista, and put it on the heat. One extraction later, and the 9Barista is clean as a whistle. Rinse everything, do one more extraction with fresh water, and you’re done.

                              wilburpan Funny enough after writing the above I have spent a good time watching various vids on YouTube about the 9barista again…..

                                10 days later

                                A quick update.. still trying various coffees,grinds and amounts with the moka pot. Besides that lots of browsing on various espresso machines.. though from a price/features point of view the Bianca seems to hit the sweetspot.

                                The 9Barista remains a interesting idea - I just wish it could be a quicker process to complete more than one shot.

                                I have bought something new to try which is the nanfoamer. The milk frother I am using does not incorporate the milk enough - and it does not seem to get that hot in the process.

                                So now I am heating the milk in the microwave and then using the nanofoamer to froth.

                                I have only tried it a couple of times - the superfine screen seems to work well - and the motor makes short work of the process. I need to still work out the best timings as I did get carried away last night and had a large pillow of foam by the end.

                                It does seem to work better than the standard wire head hand frothers (but it does cost 5 times as much).

                                I have also noticed that stock of espresso machines ‘ Flair etc seem in short supply in the UK - Bella Barista has loads out of stock.. not sure I can find a Flair for sale in the UK (unless you want the nano press). Is this a regular occurrence at this time of year before new models/restocks arrive? Luckily I am not ready to shop… yet

                                Cheers

                                Matt

                                  MattH The 9Barista remains a interesting idea - I just wish it could be a quicker process to complete more than one shot.

                                  How quickly do you want to pull a second shot? It takes me about 6 minutes from pouring the first espresso to pouring a second one.

                                    That sounds pretty quick.. I assume you cool the lower chamber under the tap and then release the pressure before separating and refilling ?

                                      MattH Right — I cool the 9Barista under cold water, and streamline the process by starting the water heating process for the second shot, and then grinding and putting the top on while the water is heating up.

                                      I once timed myself doing back-to-back shots with the 9Barista. I wasn’t rushing to set a record — I wanted to see what the real-world experience would be.

                                      After pouring the first espresso, I started my stopwatch. I went to the sink and ran cold water over the 9Barista until it was cool enough to take apart the three sections. I released the safety valve, rinsed out the bottom and middle sections, and dried them off with a towel. I filled the bottom reservoir with water, screwed the middle section on, put it on the stove, and turned the heat on.

                                      While the water for the second espresso was heating up, I popped the basket out of the top section, took the puck screen out, and knocked the puck out. I cleaned the top part, the basket, and the puck screen, and dried them off with a towel.

                                      Then I measured out the coffee beans for the second shot and ground them, I filled the basket, tamped, put the puck screen on, and attached the top part to the middle and bottom sections that were on the stove.

                                      At this point my stopwatch was at 5 minutes 24 seconds. I was close to when the water would be boiling, as I could see bubbles under the top of the middle section as I was attaching the top section on. (This doesn’t always happen. Since I did this timed run, I have a new grinder that’s faster — 10 seconds instead of 35 seconds for grinding — and so I can get the top section on quicker. This won’t affect the total time for the back-to-back shot, just this part of the process.)

                                      Espresso started coming out 17 seconds later. The extraction time was 29 seconds.

                                      So the total time from starting to cool off the 9Barista right after pouring the first shot to finishing the extraction for the second shot was 6 minutes 10 seconds.

                                      Given how close the water was to boiling when I attached the top section to the middle and bottom sections, my sense is that the main bottleneck from one shot to the next is the time it takes for the water to heat up. So washing out the middle and bottom sections first, and then getting a headstart on heating the water for the second shot is a really good move.

                                      In my experience, the workflow for doing back-to-back shots is pretty straightforward, and if you do this on a regular basis, I think anyone can get it down to 6-½ minutes or less.

                                        If you can collect from Gosport I have very reliable Sage Barista Express you could have for £200. I’m emigrating to Spain tomorrow night and I’m buying a Bianca when I arrive.