I'm finding it difficult to understand why the two differ in their flavour outputs. If I'm not wrong, both increase extraction? I have been playing around with an older coffee (roasted mid Nov 22); * 14g in, 30.8g out, 31 seconds (was aiming for a 1 : 2.3 ratio)- awful tasting, astringent finish, no specific notes, just not a nice coffee * 14g in, 41.7g out, 27 seconds (was aiming for a 1 : 3 ratio) - much nicer, lovely sweetness, way more balanced, specific notes were present, actually enjoyable I think going a touch coarser may even improve it more. I started off somewhere in between those 2 results, and started to grind finer first. When I got a horrible result I went the other way and it transformed the coffee. Sometimes coffee gives great results sticking to the "typical" parameters, sometimes not. Can someone please explain to me like I'm five, what the difference is between grinding finer, and increasing yield? And is there any way to gauge how a coffee will give the best results?

At too short a ratio, grinding ever finer can reach a ceiling, then because water can't permeate the puck, extraction drops if you go finer still, then your coffee will be both sour & bitter - sour from under-extraction and bitter because it's full of silt. At a given grind setting, increasing extraction (to a point) is more easily done by passing more water through the puck...there is a trade off though, longer brew ratios ultimately make a weaker drink. There won't be any overlap in strength between a 1:2 shot and a 1:3 shot at typical extraction levels. There isn't anything particularly atypical about a 1:3 shot. I have pulled many, many shots between 1:4 and 1:6, ratio is more linked to flavour balance vs coffee solubility. So a darker more Italian style coffee I may pull more like 1:2 to 1:3. A light roasted, or less soluble bean I might pull `longer. It can be easier to detect separate flavours in a more diluted shot. For less soluble coffees it can actually be very hard to over-extract, even at 1:5, though siltier cups might be less`tasty & flat, long before over-extraction happens. (Extraction is based on solubles dissolved in the coffee, solids are not dissolved but can still have an adverse effect on flavour if in too high a proportion). In short, I play with ratio a lot, but my grind adjustments are relatively small.

So if we stick with the coffee I was using (for ease of my understanding) - using my grinder there was a 1.5 notch difference (I have no idea what that translates to, but I have no other way to convey to you how much/little I changed the grind setting) in the SPTK38. Given I had to change grind setting to get that second output which gave me a tastier shot, if I had not changed grind setting but still aimed for 1:3 it would have taken perhaps 40 seconds? Would that shot have tasted the same as the one where I did change grind settings and used a 1:3 ratio?

@"DrForinor"#p35377 I don't really pay too much attention to shot time, if it took 40s and tasted OK, I wouldn't sweat it. If it didn't taste OK, I'd go coarser. I don't really expect shots at different grinds to taste the same (maybe characteristic of the coffee still, just differences in brightness vs drier & more mouthfeel), because what you percieve is a mix of both dissolved & undissolved coffee, so maybe the extraction would only be a bit different, but if you were too fine, the flavour would be maybe flat, less balanced

There is a barista hustle that goes through tuning a bean and explains what can happen. A free one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BT7-yOUMDM Different beans will need different tuning. Rules? Not any really. LOL I posted this elsewhere due to 1 to 2 in 30sec merchants but the web is so firm on that probably wasting my time. People seem more interested in that than how the coffee tastes. Pallets vary as well. As the video says a refractometer is not needed really. It's all about taste not set numbers. It's possible to get an idea of tuning at the commercial end for free. In short they are interesting in cost per shot and probably time too. Maximise yield figures but that will need a blend that suites. Shot time. I have noticed sone that are rather short. New beans and new machine. I obtained an awful taste and smell. I was using 14g which meant expansion was being limited reducing flow rates. Over filled basket. Stupid of me really. Cut back to 12.5g and bad aspects gone. A ratio of a bit over 3 gives a strong flat taste. When I cut back to \~2,5 I expect a bite to be added while drinking it, one that fades which is what the bean should provide. Some prefer this bean with less water flowing through - reducing shot time not grind,

I'm still confused, if I'm honest. How do I know taste wise where I have went wrong, in relation to grind vs yield? Meaning, if it tastes bitter, how do I know if I have went too fine, or my ratio is too high?

@"DrForinor"#p35487 So 1:3 with this coffee, at 1.5 notches coarser than the less pleasant 1:2 shot, worked well. Do you feel that you need to adjust anything, given the shot was as you described? I wouldn't adjust anything with this coffee, until a few shots in succession show the same fault. If the next coffee/successive brews with this coffee start becoming sharp/tart, try a slightly finer grind. If you can't shake the sharpness/tartness with grind adjustment, or the shot is very sharp/tart go longer on the ratio. If shots with another coffee are flat/silty/muddled in flavour without sharpness/tartness, shorten the ratio, if this doesn't fix it, grind coarser. If shots taste balanced at long ratios, but are just too weak & lacking intensity, try a shorter ratio and grind finer if tartness/sharpness creep in. Bitterness can be inherent in coffee, some coffees just have more than others, without knowing the coffee itself it's hard to advise. So look for other defects as well as the bitterness (chalky/powdery mouthfeel, lack of acidity). Over-extraction is a very specific bitterness, very drying and smoky, dominating the flavour. It is often very difficult to do in espresso at 1:2 or 1:3 even if you tried hard. I don't think advice to adjust based on bitterness (in general) alone is very useful. I find sharpness/tartness a better indicator (as opposed to pleasing, fruit like acidity bearing in mind some fruit are sour - it's that puckering sourness we want to avoid) as this is pretty much always under-extraction. Also if the shot is so intense that it is preventing you from determining quite how it tastes, go longer.

@"MWJB"#p35489 Ok that helped a great deal there, know what to look for taste wise and how to adjust. Thank you!!!! When I say bitterness, I'm getting a dry astringent finish. If I get this, do I go shorter with the ratio, or keep ratio same and grind coarser?

Another query, as a coffee ages - as a general rule - to get a better result from it what seems to work better with grind/ratio? Finer/coarser? Longer/shorter? Or is there no general rule, and go purely on taste?

> @"DrForinor"#p35490 When I say bitterness, I’m getting a dry astringent finish. If I get this, do I go shorter with the ratio, or keep ratio same and grind coarser? If the intensity of strength of the shot is acceptable, I'd grind coarser in the first instance.

> @"MWJB"#p35492 If the intensity of strength of the shot is acceptable, I’d grind coarser in the first instance. If I'm getting the same finish (dry), very little sweetness, very little of the indicated notes, still stick with that same protocol?

Grind finer vs Increase yield - confused

DrForinor

With the taps at the top of the rim, I was around a certain grind setting (not really having to change much, perhaps half a notch either way) for most coffees. Now that I tap towards the bottom, I’m having to go at least 2 notches coarser.

MWJB

DrForinor How is this affecting the taste?

DrForinor

tap at top, grind setting 12, tastes good
tap at bottom, grind setting 12, horrible
tap at bottom, grind setting 14, better but still feels as though needs to go a touch coarser

Maybe I have started to be more/less aggressive with my taps?

MWJB

DrForinor OK, see what coarser does, with a downward tap & side taps to level. If, at the end of the day, tap at top setting 12 gives you the best flavour, then stick with that, but I tend to grind at the coarsest setting that gives good flavour balance.

ajohn

DrForinor Maybe I have started to be more/less aggressive with my taps?

The key is consistency what ever you do to fresh grinds. That includes tapping them especially if firmly or near that but sometimes there is no choice especially when tapping grinds down.

Something I have rather recently started to do. Side taps to get a heap levelish and a currently 2 taps down to get them to sink. First problem was doing that holding the portafilter handle. That’s swinging it so grinds may finish up out of level. I then use a 2 slope leveller. Net effect when they aren’t level is many flows starting with 2 out of the filter basket that merge to one at some point and wiggle around. I now tap holding the end of the portafilter and the funnel. That tends to leave the top of them flat. More flows start with 1 and wiggle around less. I am using 2 firm taps. I may switch to one and for the same ratio that will need a different time or a grinder change. I use a ~15kg tamp which some might think overcomes variations from this area but it doesn’t. :( I am painfully aware of this as I always use a 30sec fixed shot time and check weigh what comes out. ;) I like a challenge.

Overall though the change has improved things. Obviously a higher yield as more of the puck is getting extracted more evenly. This isn’t channelling as such, It’s fairly minor variations in water flow across and through the puck.

DrForinor

DrForinor tap at bottom, grind setting 14, better but still feels as though needs to go a touch coarser

Tried the same coffee, at grind 14.5. 14g in, 35.9g out ( was aiming for 35g to give a 1 : 2.5 ratio). Five second preinfusion, 5 second wait, total time 21 seconds for this 35.9g. The shot looked quick, I thought it was going to taste horrible but it wasn’t too bad at all.

Only thing is, at grind 14 I made it into an americano with milk (how I normally drink my coffee) but this I just tasted as an espresso. I’m not an espresso drinker as I like to have coffee which lasts longer (I find an espresso is over entirely too quickly), but even as an espresso it was actually delicious. This has surprised me!! It’s left a lovely sweet lingering finish in my mouth (taste notes were apricot, mango, jammy). I cannot pick out the notes in espresso form, but it sure was sweet.

Does the fact that it was 21 seconds not really mean much then?

DrForinor

ajohn Yep, I hear you about the consistency, I just didn’t realise even variance in force of tapping could have such a huge impact 😐

MWJB

DrForinor Does the fact that it was 21 seconds not really mean much then?
It doesn’t mean a thing. 😀

Bear in mind that historically, by all definitions espresso is a drink made in 15, or 20 seconds to 30 or 50 seconds. You are within the more common 20-30s range and tasty shots can even be achieved at 20s or less if long in ratio, or targeted for a good tasting, but low extraction.

Coffee takes time to brew, but brew time for percolation (espresso/drip) is such a poor indicator of extraction that it is almost useless. Grind setting & ratio (or grind setting at a given ratio) is much more informative.

Also bear in mind that for a given grind setting & ratio, different coffees extract similarly in very different times, this is normal.

Only be guided by time when results are really poor & the time is bizarrely outside 20-50s.

Inspector

Today i had a 65 seconds shot, as a result of confusing beans and grounded much finer than i supposed to. Suprisingly it tasted really good. They were the last beans in the bag so i couldnt repeat :)

DrForinor

MWJB I think part of my problem is probably giving more weight to the importance of time before other aspects of espresso making.

Thanks for walking me through all of this, appreciated it!

ajohn

People can play with time but I think that video I posted makes a fair point. For any significant change in shot time the ratios need going through again. It’s something I play around with now and again. It might be something I’d try if a bean doesn’t seem to give what it should with a 30sec shot.

I find straight espresso too strong to drink so use americano but my final decision on taste is when it has cooled significantly,

DrForinor

ajohn I too have noticed that coffee tastes much nicer, at a temperature considerably cooler than what you might expect.

Waitforme

This is a very interesting and informative thread.

@MWJB , what are your thoughts on making an Americano, I’d normally do what the cafes do and make an 18g in / 40g out shot and top up with hot water.

But would I be better grinding coarser and running the shot to get my desired volume without the need to add water post shot ?

MWJB

Waitforme Depends what you drink the most of & how big the final drink (plus how pretty you need your pours to be).

If you mostly make typical length shots to drink as espresso or to have in milk, make Americanos, but I’d use the minimum amount of dilution water to get the clarity you want. Longer Americanos can often taste flat/dry to me. I guess because the undissolved solids become more noticeable as the concentration of the drink gets weaker.

If your drinks are mostly ending up at 50-90ml, then you may as well just make them that way, but I would only do this with a spouted portafilter as the longer shots will look awful.

DrForinor

Another shot confirmation. Taste notes, berry, citrus, caramel, roasted 22 Dec 2022.

First shot, 14g : 36g, 21sec, grind 14.5. Some sweetness, some bitterness
Second shot, 14g : 40g, 23sec, grind 14. No sweetness, very smoky.
Third shot (I figured the yield was too high), 14g 31.7g, 23sec, grind 13. More sweetness, very very little bitterness.

I’m thinking charge grind 1 notch finer to keep within 20-30 sec, but decrease output to 28-30g. Am I along the right train of thought?

MWJB

DrForinor I wouldn’t generally be changing both grind & ratio at a single adjustment.

I’d also try and quantify with a score, so there is frame of reference, like how much better can the “sweet, very very little bittereness” shot be? If it’s 7/9 then there’s obvious room for improvement, but if it’s 8/9 might be as good as you get?

I’d try 1 notch finer at same ratio, if it flattens off, then try a shorter shot.

Out of interest, what is the origin?

Ignore the time if it tastes good/ballpark. If you used the finest useable grind then poured 70g of boiling water over the 14g grounds in a cup, they would never properly extract. That is how little influence time (alone) has on extraction.

MWJB

DrForinor Third shot (I figured the yield was too high), 14g 31.7g, 23sec, grind 13. More sweetness, very very little bitterness.

You’re looking here to see if extracting a little more will start to introduce bitterness, or extract the sweetest shot. If you get smoky bitterness, or flat siltiness at 32g out, knock a little off the ratio. Or….make a few more at “third shot” settings to see if it is repeatable.

The idea is to be methodical, work in one direction until things start going wrong, then back track.

For your second shot you went finer (to lift extraction), and longer in ratio, (lifting it further) and got “smoky”. You said shot 1 was “bitter” rather than “smoky” so it’s not as clear what the fault was with this one.

3rd shot being shorter (even at a slightly finer grind) was likely a lower extraction than 2nd, maybe there is more to come at finer (I would hope so at 7/10)? Maybe you’re already at the limit?

DrForinor

MWJB I’d try 1 notch finer at same ratio, if it flattens off, then try a shorter shot.

I thought you only go finer if you get sour?

DrForinor

The change from first to second shot was marked, as was the difference between the second and third. I think about a 7/10 for third shot, but how can I be sure it wasn’t a 10/10? Meaning how do I know that’s not all the coffee has to offer?

Origin is Brazil, Colombia & Honduras (it’s a blend).

MWJB

DrForinor 10/10 would be the best coffee on Earth perfectly brewed…I mean it might be, but the odds against & reasonable expectation make this unlikely 😀

If it is a 10/10 enjoy it while you can, you may not get another one for months.

The only way to know is methodically work back a little finer, a little shorter until it starts all tasting worse again, then go back to best shot parameters. When you are on a good tasting setting, make a few at that setting, get an idea of what natural variation is like, before jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.😀

DrForinor

Hehehehe, ok I have something to work with at least 🤣

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