I've not got my machine yet (Minima), but will be getting it as early in 2022 as I can. My plan is to use Lockhills for the time being. I can't get into RO at the moment for a while host of reasons, but might do down the line (years, not months). Is Lockhills still considered okay for espresso machines (I know it isn't perfect)? It is a lot easier for me to get than Ashbeck. I also can't seem to find anything on how to descale a machine. I know the best advice is to avoid needing to, but I'm going to have to for a while. Is there a recommended approach/ process to follow? Cheers

It's probably the best bottled water. You'll need to descale the service boiler though, a fairly simple task however you do it (removing fixture or just filling with the pump).

Thank you for the quick reply @"Rob1"#171 , that's great. I like the idea of filling the service boiler directly and so not having the descalling stuff running around the whole machine. I'll give it some more thought whilst I am getting prepared.

> @"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2194 I like the idea of filling the service boiler directly and so not having the descalling stuff running around the whole machine. I’ll give it some more thought whilst I am getting prepared. As long as you **don't engage the brew switch** until descaling is completely finished and the steam boiler refreshed with water a few times to remove all descaler, n**o descaler should enter the brew boiler…** It's easier than removing fittings…just takes a bit longer.

Thanks @"DavecUK"#p2204 Just so I am clear - do you mean you'd switch the brew and steam boilers on (leaving the brew switch well alone) put the descaler in the water tank, run the HW tap to then pull the descaler into the steam boiler, let it do it's thing, then flush with lots of clean water (through the HW tap) before brewing again.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2209 Yes, exactly

Got to admit I have only ever used Ashbeck, but still descale on a regular basis just as a matter of course. However, I would be interested to hear from other members here what they consider the best water (bottled) to be as far as keeping the scale issue to a minimum…Oh, and of course for taste.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2194 Should say really Lockhills will scale in the brew boiler too very slightly. Ideally, you could mix it with something to decrease alkalinity and hardness a bit more e.g. dow to 40mg/l alkalinity using something like a zero water jug, then it wouldn't scale the brew boiler. It's still the best IMO as I wouldn't use ashbeck. You'll avoid scale in the brew boiler as is with that one but it has low alkalinity (not great for taste). Adding potassium bicarb to ashbeck is an option too.

Thanks @"Rob1"#p2289 When you say > @"Rob1"#p2289 You’ll avoid scale in the brew boiler as is with that one but it has low alkalinity (not great for taste). Adding potassium bicarb to ashbeck is an option too. "As is with that one" - what do you mean? It sounds like you might be saying if I use Ashbeck and add potassium bicarb I'd avoid brew boiler scale and deal with the taste issue. But I am not sure that's what you mean.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2294 I mean 'as is' as in without adding anything to it but alkalinity is really low so you can get around it by adding potassium bicarb to avoid increasing sodium.

@"Rob1"#171, what dose of Potassium Bicarbonate would you add to a 5 litre bottle of Ashbeck ?

Bottled Water and Descalling Espresso Machine

MWJB

I wouldn’t use a Zero jug & Lockhills. It makes more sense to use the Zero jug with harder water, like your tap water, then mx to get around 50mg/l alkalinity.

LMSC

MWJB It makes more sense to use the Zero jug with harder water, like your tap water, then mx to get around 50mg/l alkalinity.

That would also put up the hardness potentially causing scales on the Minima, is it not? Of course, the proportion is important.

Another thing, how consistently, the zero jug can really stay zero. I don’t know, but, I am not sure it can stay that way thru the life cycle of the filter.

😊

Rob1

^^ or that.

dutchy101

Do people generally use strips for testing their water or are there digital readers that anyone could recommend?

DavecUK

dutchy101 Do people generally use strips for testing their water or are there digital readers that anyone could recommend?

I believe Rob likes to look at a strip! 🤔

LMSC

dutchy101 drop kit!

MWJB

dutchy101 there are no test strips, nor digital readers for alkalinity that a worth investigating. You need a KH/alkalinity drop kit, or a water authority report.

MWJB

LMSC No, this is what I have been doing on/off for a while. If you want to aim 40mg/l rather than 50, that’s fine. Zero jug comes with a cheap TDS meter and you are advised to change filters when the meter detects 6ppm…used to take me 3-4 months at about a litre per day (you are supposed to change filters every 2 months for jug filters generally).

Zerowater is literally that, 0ppm TDS (or <6ppm at worst). You wouldn’t put that in a boiler.

dutchy101

According to my water company, my water has 116 mg/l of calcium and total hardness of 290 mg/l.

I will receive a TDS testing reader with the Zero jug. I currently use a britta water filter in my fridge for drinking water.

Would there be any reason not to run my tap water through the Britta and then through the Zero?

MWJB

dutchy101 Your hardness is 290ppm as CaCO3 because that is 116*2.5 (that is the factor that converts calcium hardness as ion to CaCO3). Evidently you have no magnesium in your water.

There is no point Brita filtering your tap water prior to putting it in the Zero jug. Buy a bigger Zero jug that you think you need, because it is slow to filter.

LMSC

MWJB Have also been testing them on the boilers ? Thx

coffeealex

MWJB I can see you are very well informed re water quality and certainly a lot more than I am. Could I ask your opinion on using osmio zero with their cartridge supplied fitted. I appreciate it introduces some calcium carbonate (I believe) but apparently such a small amount that the water is still considered soft. Would this be ok to use or is any level of calcium or magnesium a big no no to espresso machines.

MWJB

LMSC For use in boilers is the primary driver for treating your water. 40-60ppm alkalinity is pretty much the universal recommendation in coffee land (up to 80ppm for La Marzocco).

LMSC

MWJB Thank you. While you addressed one part of my query, I am also interested in hearing your test results on hardness - scaling risks on boilers (especially the service boilers). 😊

I am sure you would have tested it over the years,
without which, I know, you won’t recommend! 😊

MWJB

LMSC Testing would mean destruction testing. I wouldn’t do that on my own equipment, so I use the consensus recommendations of people much cleverer than me, that have stood the test of scrutiny & review for 20yrs. :-) I have read every coffee related water paper I could find.

I prefer to keep my testing to things that don’t have catastrophic failure modes :-)

dutchy101

So Ive just seen a drop kit suggested by Rob in another thread that I’ll be purchasing and I’ll try managing the water using this and ther zero whilst I await deluvery of the Skuma.

Thanks to everyone for their help - this is a new area to me but something I need to get my head around before I take delivery of a Minima

Goodfella

Could you post a link to the drop kit suggested?

Ross

dutchy101

Sure - was this one:

From this thread, which I would recommend reading is quite a useful read too:

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/118-water-calculator-scaling-potential-and-remineralisation

Rob1

@LMSC

The hardness in tap water comes from carbonate salts as the majority source. There may be some additional sources in there too but dropping alkalinity down by cutting with zero water is almost certainly going to reduce hardness down to the point scaling won’t occur. Hardness would have to be roughly double alkalinity for scaling at brew boiler temps (at 40mg/l alkalinity). There’s probably an exception out there I just don’t think I’ve seen it.

LMSC

Rob1 Hardness would have to be roughly double alkalinity for scaling at brew boiler temps (at 40mg/l alkalinity).

Thanks Rob. Is this generally the case for water in general or if this is zero water specific — because my question was zero water related.

How does this (hardness roughly doubling alkalinity) play for the service boiler please ?

MWJB Testing would mean destruction testing.

Thanks Mark! Sorry, didn’t quite understand this statement. Could you clarify please? 😊

When I said testing - I assumed drawing water from the boiler, letting it return to the room temperature and using drip kit to measure hardness.

Sorry, perhaps, I should have clarified! Thx

MWJB

LMSC Sorry, didn’t mean to be mysterious, to my mind testing which water is good, which corrodes to problematic level, and which scales to a problematic level means 3 machines equally fed with different water, one of which survives. My Dad has done the scale test on a Gaggia Classic & 260ppm hardness/190ppm alkalinity water, stripped it twice in 6yrs, now it’s a project machine in my spare room. :-)

I have tested water, boiled it, then retested and I don’t recall seeing a difference…even if there is, I’m not sure this is meaningful if we already know the relationship between hardness, alkalinity, pH, temp & LSI predictions (all based on incoming, ambient water).

Rob1

LMSC Thanks Rob. Is this generally the case for water in general or if this is zero water specific — because my question was zero water related.

How does this (hardness roughly doubling alkalinity) play for the service boiler please ?

I’m not sure what you mean by that really. Zero water is basically pretty close to pure, similar to RO. If you’re asking how long the jugs remain effective for I don’t know, but if you’re diluting to 40mg/l alkalinity all the time you’ll get consistent results you’ll just need to use more water from the jug as the filter wears out (the filter might not gradually stop working).

At service boiler temps it drops, say around 125c above approx 50mg/l hardness: 40mg/l alkalinity will scale.

If you pull water from a service boiler to test it, if scale is forming your test will always show the water as non-scaling afterwards. You can use a test to see if the water has more minerals compared to what you’ve been putting in, but you can’t determine when it started scaling and how much scale has formed without knowing how much water you’ve lost when steaming.

LMSC

MWJB Nicely explained ! Thank you.

Wow! your dad is a legend! I am not surprised water, brewing and stat have become your natural qualities.

I would never feed the machine with water having such levels of hardness and alkalinity. The only testing I have been doing since getting my Evo is a drop kit test for hardness and alkalinity of the re-mineralised RO water, which I regularly draw from the service boiler to find evidences of scale forming.

« Previous Page Next Page »