Well, how about that! Niche just released an 83 mm flat burr grinder. Love my conical, but very interesting. They are using two burr sets: one for espresso and one for drip.

I backed the Timemore grinder. The Niche duo is twice the price but perhaps more likely to be reliable. I’m conflicted now…

Comes with two sets of burrs as standard, that's pretty good.

Anybody noted that the photo of the burrs show different rotation?

Hmmm all very interested and then its April 1st - bit as you can order it…. It does say its not shipping to July 2023. [URL=https://i.imgur.com/oRn6FKK.png][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/oRn6FKK.png[/IMG][/URL]

On the one hand this doesn’t seem weird enough to be an April Fool’s. A Niche with a massive hopper or something would’ve been more of a joke. On the other, for a machine known for it’s great workflow, it seems slightly weird to have to change burrs to switch coffee types as if anyone would actually just casually switch burrs multiple times a day.

Tbh the ‘sold with two burrs’ is the only thing that makes me question this.

> @"Ernie1"#p40980 slightly weird to have to change burrs to switch coffee types as if anyone would actually just casually switch burrs multiple times a day. You don’t need to. But if you want to grind correctly for filter (as in, be more optimised for that method, extract better flavours etc) you are better off with the more appropriate burr set.

@"Igm45"#p40981 Didn’t someone reference a patent entry in this forum a couple of weeks back which alluded to that very design? Edit: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/47/93/9b/b7dc1dd206b3c3/WO2023274895A1.pdf

Niche flat burr released

MWJB

FadedFrontiers A large study is going to be costly and no one is going to be interested in footing the bill. I don’t expect a large scale scientific study, but anyone who has 2 grinders/burrs to compare can take some basing measurements, especially for drip/filter. I do it for every brew I make at home (times, EY, subjective preference score, some flavour perception notes & often a sifting result after dial in).

Gagne’s Q factor seems a lot like the previously used (last 80yrs?) std.dev in sifting. I haven’t been able to find any relationship between a sifted Q factor and overall preference myself, with filter.

This word “geometries” seems very popular at the minute, do you mean shape & size of burrs, or something more detailed (e.g. pre-breaker & finishing area characteristics)?

FadedFrontiers

MWJB yeah that’s pretty much it (average/sd), by no means novel but a straightforward way of looking at spread that is often neglected in favour of endless charts and tables.

Yeah like a lot of coffee jargon I don’t think it’s very consistently defined but I use geometry to exclusively mean the specific design of the different parts of the burr’s surface that come into contact with coffee - regardless of shape or size (well not quite regardless but you know what I mean…)

wilburpan

MediumRoastSteam The Niche Zero folks don’t specify the wattage of the motor, as far as I can tell. That indicates that they don’t see this as a selling point, otherwise they probably would specify it.

From a quick survey, it seems that most coffee grinder manufacturers will specify the wattage of the motor. In fact, it’s to find a grinder manufacturer that doesn’t, except for Niche. Fellows doesn’t seem to specify wattage, but they do specify torque, which is arguably a better measure than wattage.

DavecUK

wilburpan A DC motor will draw whatever wattage it needs to, only limited by the resistance of the windings (which isn’t that high). It’s why the main control board in the Niche such (as it is) has a a self resetting cut out, if too much current is drawn in too short a time (protecting the motor windings). So it really doesn’t make any sense to talk about maximum motor power consumption in W.

Unlike a free running non geared AC induction motor…but again, wattage consumption bears no real relationship to torque…or not the one you think.. If you jam an AC induction motor, there is little torque…jam a DC one and it’s exerting a very high torque.

It’s just how these motors work.

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK - thank you for answering the question, Dave. 👍

wilburpan

DavecUK A DC motor will draw whatever wattage it needs to, only limited by the resistance of the windings (which isn’t that high). It’s why the main control board in the Niche such (as it is) has a a self resetting cut out, if too much current is drawn in too short a time (protecting the motor windings). So it really doesn’t make any sense to talk about maximum motor power consumption in W.

I agree with all of the above, and understand the design. But this design begs the question of why a cut out would be necessary if a motor is spec’ed that’s powerful enough to grind coffee beans to espresso sizes with a given burr size.

And just to address the issue of different burrs of the same size requiring different amounts of power, burr geometry may play a role in how much power is needed for a given burr, but the burr size itself is probably the major factor. In addition, the number of third-party burrs is a pretty well known quantity, and basic engineering for this issue would probably include something like “The most power hungry burr in this size needs X watts, so let’s spec a motor that’s X+15% watts”, or something like that.

I’ll mention again that every other grinder manufacturer I can find seems to have no problem giving some sort of idea of how powerful the motor is. It’s sort of like MPG for cars – your actual mileage will differ from the stated MG depending on your driving habits, but the MPG ratings allow some sort of comparison between one car and another.

Ernie1

To voice my concerns a different way, because I’m not smart enough to understand electrical specs;

Is there a risk of burnout or stress with using a motor designed for 64mm conical burrs with 83mm flat burrs?

I appreciate they will have tested it it’s just there are rumours this was possibly rushed out to compete with the growing number of well regarded competing SD flats, competition that didn’t really exist when the Niche Zero was launched.

Obviously just rumours, not saying I agree or support those rumours at all, just curious.

MediumRoastSteam

Ernie1 Is there a risk of burnout or stress with using a motor designed for 64mm conical burrs with 83mm flat burrs?

Not answering your question directly, but are you implying the motors on both grinders are the same? What makes you say that? Or is it just hypothetically speaking and not related to the Niche?

Ps: I can’t answer your question, just curious why you are asking.

DavecUK

Ernie1 there are rumours this was possibly rushed out to compete with the growing number of well regarded competing SD flats, competition that didn’t really exist when the Niche Zero was launched.

I didn’t know that. The more interesting question might be, what is their basis for making such statements?

Ernie1

MediumRoastSteam

Hypothetical, but now I’m wondering if it is the same motor as the Zero.

I’m not trying to be negative, I’m genuinely tempted to buy one as my Ode 2 isn’t really living up to expectations now so a do-it-all grinder is appealing.

It’s just a lot of money so clearing up my concerns!

MediumRoastSteam

Ernie1 - I understand, and I’m the same. It’s a lot of money, and, personally (I said this before for other things) I wouldn’t rush to buy something without first seeing good feedback on.

I know it’s a Niche and I already have one. But this is a major change. It would be great to hear feedback and someone dissecting the product before I part with my hard earned cash.

Also rumours are evil. Unless someone has seen and used one, whatever is said is worth nothing. So, are the motors he same? Only very few people know. 😊

Ernie1

DavecUK

No solid basis at all I don’t think. It’s speculation based on the unexpected launch with practically zero hype (admittedly very weird even from a marketing perspective if nothing else) and the possible need to get it out to compete with the other releases from the likes of Timemore I suppose.

There’s obviously every chance that the Duo will go on to see the same success and praise as the Zero, and I hope it does but I guess it’s the internet, you’ll always get naysayers.

dutchy101

Let’s get some perspective here on what rushing a grinder out actually entails. Pretty much from minute 1 after the Niche launched, people were wishing they would release a flat burr version.

My Solo / DF64 is now 3 years old. This was being compared to the Niche - put in videos and touted as a potential ‘Niche Killer’ as a single dosing flat burr grinder back when it surfaced. That was 3 years ago.

I’m not sure realistically they have suddenly decided they need to get a foothold in the flat burr market and rush out a product. They’ve most likely been developing and refining it for years - just not doing it via kickstarter type projects which take a year or so to get to production

MediumRoastSteam

dutchy101 They’ve most likely been developing and refining it for years

My thoughts exactly. And as I said before, it’s unlikely Niche would release something they are unhappy with. Take the df64 for example. It’s 3 years old and owners are still doing mods to it. Going by Niche’s reputation (let’s not forget the Zero was in the design/prototype phase for years), it will be a finished product.

Still, it would be great if Niche sent units away for open and honest feedback and/or demonstrating the product in a much deeper level of detail.

Ernie1

I’m not saying they made it overnight, we’d seen the patent applications, but it could’ve launched with limited testing. Not saying it did, just that it’s possible.

It’s just really unusual for any product in this day and age, especially to a specialist market, just appear with absolutely no announcement prior to release. Even without competition it just doesn’t make any sales sense at all.

MediumRoastSteam

Ernie1 just appear with absolutely no announcement prior to release

If you think about it, it hasn’t been released yet. You can pre-order, but delivery is for July. You could argue that’s the announcement, and people are welcome to pre-order (or they can wait and buy when it’s readily available).

tompoland

Ernie1 it would be a loooong way out of character for James Nicholson to rush anything. By all account he’s a perfectionist.

Cuprajake

Some would say

Giphy - Refreshing Will Ferrell GIF by Anchorman Movie

Not having every new product rammed down your throat.

Take the sculptor as an example, it’s being heavily promoted ATM, the 78s hasn’t been tested yet it’s amazing,

The new world of social media has alot to answer for in reality.

We are guilty as consumers, the likes of Amazon and YouTube/Instagram give us instant gratification, and we want everything yesterday.

I think launching on April fools is brilliant, why pay/give freebies to influencers when it’s spread across every forum and Facebook/Instagram page anyway, and on a plus point those scalpers who bought niche zeros won’t have a clue about it .

JahLaza

MediumRoastSteam You could argue that’s the announcement,

As you say here and Cuprajake above, isn’t it refreshing that the established, and reputed company that it is is releasing this like this? You know their reputation, you know what they do, here is another product from them, no nonsense, just click if you want to buy one! It would be great to have some info/reviews on it before ordering but maybe the confidence/reputation is there to not need it? Compared to the big hype going around of other totally unknown stuff costing this and more at the moment I like it

Ernie1

Fair points, as above, I’m hopeful. I’d been wanting a flat burr Niche for a long while.

MediumRoastSteam

JahLaza - I’m sure it’s a great grinder. I suppose people have different approaches to making an informed choice. You can trust someone based on reputation, of course. A grinder is not something I depend upon. I’m happy to wait until there’s more information about it out there.

JahLaza

MediumRoastSteam yes, I think it’s an interesting decision to go with the interchangeable burr sets. I’m not sure how that will play out- would you really want to be going through all that each time just for a different brew type? Maybe, might suit some, but dialling in then becomes more labour intensive as you try get it back to exactly wherever was woth the other burrs etc etc Maybe it’s the best balancing act rather than having two grinders in the kitchen. I too, am very interested to see/hear some feedback

MediumRoastSteam

JahLaza yes, I think it’s an interesting decision to go with the interchangeable burr sets

I only drink espresso, so for me it’s rather irrelevant. I suppose you could still use the espresso burrs to grind for filter if you don’t want to swap every time, same as the current Niche Zero? But I don’t know that. Hence why I think more detailed explanations, reviews and real world usage videos are welcome. 👍

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