FadedFrontiers Do you have any data to the contrary?

I’m looking for data, that’s why I asked.

The phone app/photo based measurement methods you linked to are not intuitive & easy to read, nor correlated to any known convention/datums.

I’m specifically not asking for more anecdotal accounts, especially from owners/influencers as to why their extemely rare grinder is somehow special.

Jim Schuman’s appraisal of the Titan grinder PD curves were they were all statistically ‘the same’ IIRC (I have no comment on this).

      MWJB I get that I just think it’s extremely unlikely we’ll get any sort of definitive study given how costly and time consuming it is to do such methodological tests. And I don’t think the imperfection of other more pragmatic approaches are reason to disregard them completely. Agree we should approach opinions and marketing about burrs with skepticism, much in the way we would do an actual grinder or other bit of equipment.

      Gagne’s use of q-factor as a way of quantifying grind distribution for example seems useful, not just for comparing different geometries either - as it also showed the benefit that seasoning and aligning burrs has in creating tighter particle distribution.

          FadedFrontiers A large study is going to be costly and no one is going to be interested in footing the bill. I don’t expect a large scale scientific study, but anyone who has 2 grinders/burrs to compare can take some basing measurements, especially for drip/filter. I do it for every brew I make at home (times, EY, subjective preference score, some flavour perception notes & often a sifting result after dial in).

          Gagne’s Q factor seems a lot like the previously used (last 80yrs?) std.dev in sifting. I haven’t been able to find any relationship between a sifted Q factor and overall preference myself, with filter.

          This word “geometries” seems very popular at the minute, do you mean shape & size of burrs, or something more detailed (e.g. pre-breaker & finishing area characteristics)?

              MediumRoastSteam The Niche Zero folks don’t specify the wattage of the motor, as far as I can tell. That indicates that they don’t see this as a selling point, otherwise they probably would specify it.

              From a quick survey, it seems that most coffee grinder manufacturers will specify the wattage of the motor. In fact, it’s to find a grinder manufacturer that doesn’t, except for Niche. Fellows doesn’t seem to specify wattage, but they do specify torque, which is arguably a better measure than wattage.

                  wilburpan A DC motor will draw whatever wattage it needs to, only limited by the resistance of the windings (which isn’t that high). It’s why the main control board in the Niche such (as it is) has a a self resetting cut out, if too much current is drawn in too short a time (protecting the motor windings). So it really doesn’t make any sense to talk about maximum motor power consumption in W.

                  Unlike a free running non geared AC induction motor…but again, wattage consumption bears no real relationship to torque…or not the one you think.. If you jam an AC induction motor, there is little torque…jam a DC one and it’s exerting a very high torque.

                  It’s just how these motors work.

                  Contact me

                      To voice my concerns a different way, because I’m not smart enough to understand electrical specs;

                      Is there a risk of burnout or stress with using a motor designed for 64mm conical burrs with 83mm flat burrs?

                      I appreciate they will have tested it it’s just there are rumours this was possibly rushed out to compete with the growing number of well regarded competing SD flats, competition that didn’t really exist when the Niche Zero was launched.

                      Obviously just rumours, not saying I agree or support those rumours at all, just curious.

                        Ernie1 Is there a risk of burnout or stress with using a motor designed for 64mm conical burrs with 83mm flat burrs?

                        Not answering your question directly, but are you implying the motors on both grinders are the same? What makes you say that? Or is it just hypothetically speaking and not related to the Niche?

                        Ps: I can’t answer your question, just curious why you are asking.

                            MediumRoastSteam

                            Hypothetical, but now I’m wondering if it is the same motor as the Zero.

                            I’m not trying to be negative, I’m genuinely tempted to buy one as my Ode 2 isn’t really living up to expectations now so a do-it-all grinder is appealing.

                            It’s just a lot of money so clearing up my concerns!

                                Ernie1 there are rumours this was possibly rushed out to compete with the growing number of well regarded competing SD flats, competition that didn’t really exist when the Niche Zero was launched.

                                I didn’t know that. The more interesting question might be, what is their basis for making such statements?

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                                    Ernie1 - I understand, and I’m the same. It’s a lot of money, and, personally (I said this before for other things) I wouldn’t rush to buy something without first seeing good feedback on.

                                    I know it’s a Niche and I already have one. But this is a major change. It would be great to hear feedback and someone dissecting the product before I part with my hard earned cash.

                                    Also rumours are evil. Unless someone has seen and used one, whatever is said is worth nothing. So, are the motors he same? Only very few people know. 😊

                                      DavecUK

                                      No solid basis at all I don’t think. It’s speculation based on the unexpected launch with practically zero hype (admittedly very weird even from a marketing perspective if nothing else) and the possible need to get it out to compete with the other releases from the likes of Timemore I suppose.

                                      There’s obviously every chance that the Duo will go on to see the same success and praise as the Zero, and I hope it does but I guess it’s the internet, you’ll always get naysayers.

                                        Let’s get some perspective here on what rushing a grinder out actually entails. Pretty much from minute 1 after the Niche launched, people were wishing they would release a flat burr version.

                                        My Solo / DF64 is now 3 years old. This was being compared to the Niche - put in videos and touted as a potential ‘Niche Killer’ as a single dosing flat burr grinder back when it surfaced. That was 3 years ago.

                                        I’m not sure realistically they have suddenly decided they need to get a foothold in the flat burr market and rush out a product. They’ve most likely been developing and refining it for years - just not doing it via kickstarter type projects which take a year or so to get to production

                                          dutchy101 They’ve most likely been developing and refining it for years

                                          My thoughts exactly. And as I said before, it’s unlikely Niche would release something they are unhappy with. Take the df64 for example. It’s 3 years old and owners are still doing mods to it. Going by Niche’s reputation (let’s not forget the Zero was in the design/prototype phase for years), it will be a finished product.

                                          Still, it would be great if Niche sent units away for open and honest feedback and/or demonstrating the product in a much deeper level of detail.

                                            I’m not saying they made it overnight, we’d seen the patent applications, but it could’ve launched with limited testing. Not saying it did, just that it’s possible.

                                            It’s just really unusual for any product in this day and age, especially to a specialist market, just appear with absolutely no announcement prior to release. Even without competition it just doesn’t make any sales sense at all.

                                              Some would say

                                              Giphy - Refreshing Will Ferrell GIF by Anchorman Movie

                                              Not having every new product rammed down your throat.

                                              Take the sculptor as an example, it’s being heavily promoted ATM, the 78s hasn’t been tested yet it’s amazing,

                                              The new world of social media has alot to answer for in reality.

                                              We are guilty as consumers, the likes of Amazon and YouTube/Instagram give us instant gratification, and we want everything yesterday.

                                              I think launching on April fools is brilliant, why pay/give freebies to influencers when it’s spread across every forum and Facebook/Instagram page anyway, and on a plus point those scalpers who bought niche zeros won’t have a clue about it .

                                              Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                                                Ernie1 just appear with absolutely no announcement prior to release

                                                If you think about it, it hasn’t been released yet. You can pre-order, but delivery is for July. You could argue that’s the announcement, and people are welcome to pre-order (or they can wait and buy when it’s readily available).

                                                    Fair points, as above, I’m hopeful. I’d been wanting a flat burr Niche for a long while.

                                                    MWJB yeah that’s pretty much it (average/sd), by no means novel but a straightforward way of looking at spread that is often neglected in favour of endless charts and tables.

                                                    Yeah like a lot of coffee jargon I don’t think it’s very consistently defined but I use geometry to exclusively mean the specific design of the different parts of the burr’s surface that come into contact with coffee - regardless of shape or size (well not quite regardless but you know what I mean…)