wilburpan I’d just like to mention that the DF83 with the stock burrs have given me everything I want in my espresso. There may be “better” burr options out there, but I’m very happy with the ones that came with the grinder. So I’m happy to say that the DF83 is a proven option.
That’s great if you have found a grinder that suits your workflow, your coffee tastes and your machine…absolutely stick with it. Coffee is an expensive enough hobby as it is. I think that’s the decision many people made with the Niche Zero back in the day. Was it the best grinder out there…or was it the best grinder for them at the time….and possibly still is today.
Doram All anyone can ever give is their subjective conclusions. Short of trying for ourselves, that’s the best we can ask for. And of course it’s up to anyone to decide for themselves how they treat other people’s subjective conclusions.
Well I’ll summarise to keep it simple.
- Filter burrs vs Espresso burrs set for filter (grind size being equalised as best as possible. Using Identical V60 cones and temperature controlled kettle, both coffees made simultaneously, with 2 sets of scales.
double blind taste testing resulted in correct identification about 90% of the time, usually the first try producing an unsure comment. The taste was sweeter with less bitterness and more defined flavours. The appearance of the coffee bed was not hugely different…perhaps slightly less silty. Draw down times were almost identical
For the espresso tests, shot times and weights were identical with no visible channeling
- Espresso - Duo vs Niche zero = more clarity more sweetness and surprisingly very little loss of body.
- Espresso - Duo vs EG1 (standard burr option) = very little to tell between them, I honestly couldn’t tell and neither could others
- Espresso - Duo vs Eureka Mignon - superior espresso, more body, better flavour separation
- Espresso - Duo vs Lagom P100 (High Uniformity burrs) = The duo produced a sweeter shot with less bitterness as opposed to the more astringent, thinner and more bitter shot from the P100. In Americanos the reason for this became clearer with the P100 leaving about 70% more fines in the bottom of the cup.
- Filter, Duo vs Zero = no contest.
In all grinders except the Niche Zero the Duo workflow was superior. The EG1 in particular was a real PITA to use, with static and retention proving a problem as was the stepped adjustment.
Interestingly the burr gap (in Microns) for like for like espresso in the EG1 was the same as early pre production models of the Duo…However in the more refined production variants of the Duo the burr gap is noticeably larger for the same coffees. This most likely represents better alignment of the burrs as the EG1 is a bit of a movable feast.
The P100 shows a similar burr micron distance to the Duo, so is likely extremely well aligned. it’ hewn out of unobtainium, weighs as much as dual boiler espresso machine, is quiet and fast to grind. However, that speed is tempered by the wait for the spin up to clear the grinds and the need to flick the knocker at least 4 times to ensure you get all the coffee out. If you don’t it can retain up to 3g.
However, for the P100, I did a test with 5 month old coffee that already needed a very fine grind when it was fresh. The P100 at it’s finest setting before burr touch could only produce at best a 19s gusher for 16g of coffee into 32g output. An almost production Duo could produce a 28s shot with the same parameters at 3 to 4 marks before touch point (or 36 to 48 micron). The grind fineness only limited by the burrs ability to clear and not clog. Grind time on the duo did increase by 50% at these fineness levels.
Although I still have the P100 in my kitchen, I don’t actually enjoy the workflow (or the "magic grind cup thing)….I still have tests of filter coffee to do with the P100 vs the Duo. I am roasting a special coffee tomorrow, and once it’s rested a few days will conduct the filter testing. I am not expecting the HU espresso burrs in the P100 to perform well in this at all, as they are really not designed for filter. This was clear in the appearance of grinds when I was initially dialling it in.
I wouldn’t spend my own money on the P100, I think there must be better grinders in that price range like the Kafateks etc…
P.S. I settled on a Mid range speed for the P100
P.P.S This is just my opinion (opinions are like arseholes, we all have one), if you have a p100 and love it, fantastic, perhaps I wasn’t using it right?
P.P.P.S I sold my Ceado E92 today to a retail establishment, to fund a better phone for video and photos.
