Niche duo - 83mm flat

MattH

MWJB I was just posting the link 😂

I learned nothing new from it - thats not been covered here.

MWJB

Cuprajake Recent comments aren’t about the Niche grinders so much, more the optics of a review from a slick, polished, videographer/influencer (however slick, it doesn’t add credibility in my book, having looked through his YT content) who already advertises the Zero (but seemingly mostly uses a Fellow Ode in his brew guide videos).

I love my Zero, but this kind of flannel is a turn off.

Cuprajake

I get alot of it has to grab attention these days as the social media side is so quick to skip

Me personally I love the technology side and to learn, I wish more vids went into that sort of depth rather than mentioning and then glossing over it.

I’d have much more respect for these YouTube review types if they were written on a forum, as that’s not a gauenteed source of income that a click nature is, taking the time to visit forums speak with endusers etc.

Fwiw when mine goes back I will access my funds and if I can afford one I’ll buy a duo,

MediumRoastSteam

And no offence to anyone who got the Niche for testing and has a YT channel. I know @Cuprajake will just say it straight if you ask him. But presumably, as far as a test is concerned, and the fact some got selected for testing, will one of the testers ever say openly that, at the end of the day, the Niche Zero is just as good in the cup as the Duo, and that an upgrade is not worth the while for espresso only? Maybe, maybe not, and taste is subjective, to complicate things. And then there will be those who didn’t get the Duo for testing (e.g.: Lance Hedrick) who was never a fan of the Niche anyway, who most likely will not sing its praises, out of spite or just to carry on with his on personal view. Now, if he does like the grinder, then that would be an interesting take on his review whenever it comes.

And to Jake’s point above, I think we all know the grinder, in terms of functionality, the Niche Duo is ace, A*, whatever. It’s a Niche, unbeatable workflow, no RDT, no bellows. I can’t argue with that. I’ve seen it myself, I’ve used, I had coffee from it and it’s great in terms of usability and what it does.

For me at least, I would like to see how the Duo fares for espresso in terms of taste against the Niche Zero and the DF64V. But equally I think I’m beating a dead horse as the Duo is a new concept. Almost as trying to compare apples and pears: similar, but not quite.

To my tastebuds, for espresso - and that’s me personally - I was expecting the 83mm flat of the Niche to blow me away in comparison with the Zero. Granted I didn’t taste it side by side, but I tried a coffee on my Zero and then on the Duo with espresso burrs. It didn’t blow me away. Yes, there was a subtle difference, but it wasn’t a revelation moment. A difference not worthwhile £800 (or whatever the difference is if you sell your Zero). Maybe it’s just me.

Will I buy one? I think I might do, eventually. There’re a lot of grinders coming out there which are similar in price (I don’t care about 83mm burrs, I don’t care about the “duo” aspect. 64mm burrs is just fine for me, espresso only) so I want to wait and see. The Kopi Deva is an interesting one, made in the UK, Mazzer SJ burrs as stock.

Cuprajake

Bang on its all personal preference.

I’ve had the major for such a long time that when I got the niche along side it felt a bit meh for me, and as I always say it makes good coffee just not what the major does, if I could of found a kony I wouldn’t have a zero haha

The Hoffman end game grinder was good for this, as he did comment on the niche and how it’s very incremental in stepping up Vs the £££ spent.

FadedFrontiers

Cuprajake I have a question now the initial flurry has died down, have you done any side by side blind espresso taste tests with the Duo and your Major?

I’m genuinely interested in how much the Duo’s alignment, rpm and overall single dosing design impacts taste versus the Major.

Niche’s RRP is definitely competitive compared to other grinders of its type but a modded Major can be picked up for approx half to a quarter of its price second hand. If there’s no significant difference in taste between the two then the compact footprint, single dosing design and easy burr swap may not be worth the extra £££ to some.

Cuprajake

Yeah did that a while ago when I first got it.

I use the Mrs as a test subject to as her coffee preferences are different to mine. Milk drinker med beans but of the ‘normal’ nutty, choc flavours

A blind test with the duo Vs the niche in milk with two different beans and she picked out the duo everytime.

Blind testing Vs the major for me is harder and I’d say half the time I’d pick wrong

You get more of a sense when back to back tasting, blind is very difficult but side by side you can taste the differences easier and more notable.

I still love my major and I don’t mind work flow, the niche just presents it in a better package,

Not everyone can get away with the size, I did have to shim my major to get the results I got from the out the box duo

Used majors doserless are still £400-500

Cuprajake

Size comparison

dfk41

If you were a company that had had success without the help of Youtube influencers several years ago, and you had made a major investment into a new product, and you accept the market has moved on in to how you market things, and your firm does not have to take the Crowdfunding route…….would you want ‘home’ reviewers or people who only have an agenda to try and destroy something?

Sure, the video was polished, did not show anything from start to finish, including a shot being prepared, ground and pulled, but apart from our venerable hosts videos, who does? The important things for me, were no gremlins came out which matches my own experiences, the green bean grinding (sourced from our very own @Cuprajake) looked impressive, especially when a competitor was briefly shown failing. This puts to be the pretend worries of the doubters over motor and gearbox power. Other influencers will have their own take, but if I were Niche, I would be quite happy with that first review

FadedFrontiers

dfk41 I don’t quite follow, the majority of coffee influencers not only raved about the Niche Zero at the time but were all sent units. It was in the background of practically every major coffee YouTuber’s videos. One notable video a year later voicing some criticisms does not represent the majority of them and it’s not really evidence of an agenda either.

Ernie1

Seeing them side by side with the Major now I realise why I’m not a fan of the design. It looks like a Morphy Richards or Kenwood ‘appliance’ rather than a machine. Not necessarily a bad thing but I suppose in the same way a Sage Oracle and an ECM E61 look different.

At £800 I’d just like it to look more like a high end piece of equipment like other coffee gear at that price point. I think this is where things like the Timemore and Fellow do a good job. It’s an evolution of grinder design but has a refined look to it.

Cuprajake

Id love to see a breakdown of who bought the zero

Was it was nerds like us or more the normal Joe public John Lewis sage users.

Agree on the visual they are very food processor, looks have grown on me, but I prefer the majors looks.

MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake - I was thinking the same. Was thinking of making a poll here to see how many of us pre-ordered.

Also, I noticed they are selling though retailers now? (At least in Oz)

https://alternativebrewing.com.au/products/niche-zero-grinder
https://alternativebrewing.com.au/products/niche-duo-coffee-grinder

Ernie1

Cuprajake Was it was nerds like us or more the normal Joe public John Lewis sage users.

Exactly this, I’d like to see this also.

If it’s the latter then I can understand the design direction somewhat. I mean Sage machines sell like hotcakes too. Although having said that, we’ve got a Kitchenaid that looks the same as it did 50 years ago. Le Creuset etc.

I think the price point thing carries through to other goods also, like a £30 mixer isn’t going to look like a Kitchenaid. £200 Dualit or Rowlett toaster looks nicer than a £15 Argos one. Not that I’d ever spend £200 on a toaster…

The thing is though it hasn’t stopped it becoming one of the most popular grinders ever, but I think the £800 grinder audience will be more discerning.

I’d be interested to see a poll on how many people bought a Zero regardless but weren’t fans of the design.

MediumRoastSteam

Ernie1 - I think he design makes sense. It’s just the same looks and principles of the Zero. It sold like hot cakes, it’s trialed and tested. Why change? So one would assume that the audience who would think of buying the Zero would also now consider the Duo. Or even those who have a Zero might consider upgrading to the Duo, or have it additionally. It will look like a straight replacement, or both will go well together. It makes total sense.

For Joe public, who goes to John Lewis and buys a coffee machine, it will be interesting. Take a look at the niche coffee website and tell me whether you, pretending, as a consumer who wouldn’t know much about coffee (let alone what a burr grinder is, needless to say conical vs flat burrs!) would comfortably be able to understand the advantages of one over the other, apart from one being capable of making “exceptional espresso” and “flawless filter”. The other making “excellent espresso and filter brewing”. They both make great coffee according to them. But one is 37% cheaper.

I am really looking forward to see how the sales will pan out. One of the reasons I’m hanging on.

The Zero sold like hot cakes because it was ground breaking. There was nothing like it, and the price was significantly lower than anything else that could be compared to it. In a way, it still is. The Duo is another revolutionary design. Nothing like it around. But it doesn’t come with a friendly price tag, and the audience has shifted somehow for anyone who just want to make a coffee (any kind of coffee, really) to a more selective and knowledgeable audience. One could not even say flat is better than conical… because some of us prefer conicals anyway, so it’s not necessarily an upgrade for the enthusiasts either.

Cuprajake

Depends maybe the success of the zero may make more ‘normal’ people look at the duo,

What the duo does is open up big burrs to people who may not have otherwise looked at them. UK pricing anyway

Ernie1

@MediumRoastSteam

Yeah fair points, I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference if I wasn’t pretty seriously into coffee.

That’s made me think though and I’m not sure anyone would buy a Zero unless they were pretty invested in coffee. To even be buying a coffee grinder at all I guess requires someone to be fairly into it.

As you say, it’s best in a class it defined and still relatively unchallenged which suggests people are probably buying it regardless of how it looks.

I might have imagined this but I remember reading when the Zero first came out that the designer behind it had worked for a number of consumer appliance brands, which would explain the design. I don’t mean that negatively at all. Designer’s tend to have a ‘handwriting’, a style if you will, so I’d imagine that’s how the Niche ended up looking like it does.

Had Mr. Mazzer, Dieter Rams, Jon Ive or Pininfarina designed it it would’ve looked different. Not necessarily better, but in line with the things they design.

It’s not an easy thing to design though. I’m a designer, have a Red Dot award and worked under ex-Conran staff and I’d struggle to come up with something that isn’t either just a replica of a Mazzer or something so different it stops looking like a grinder at all.

dfk41

I do not get the negativity. No one is expecting a hard nosed Zero owner to buy one. They are already in coffee heaven having a zero retention, single dosing conical grinder. A lot of those, who dabble with the darker stuff do not do brewed coffee. But, as we saw with Londinium’s development, by sticking with the L1 design they were ignoring the far larger lighter roast market. The Duo I presume, is aimed at the flat burr market, the medium to lighter coffee person who reckons a flat burr allows them to pick out notes a conical cannot. If they want to pick out these notes for espresso and brewed they can now do that with just one grinder. It is not expensive at £799 when looking at what many folks pay. Apart from the DF83 which does not come standard with 2 sets of burrs let alone Mazzer burrs, what can you buy that comes anywhere close?

DavecUK

dfk41 I do not get the negativity.

I don’t think it’s negativity, just people voicing preferences….

LMSC

I think, if Niche were to give burrs options, I would rather like them to go a full circle, offer Niche Flat BYOB - no burr or Uno or Duo. They can provide the users to buy carrier(s) as options to mount the burrs.

People would still prefer trying other burrs like SSP, which may require some customisation of the carrier.

It is up to owners to choose compatible burrs set. If the carriers don’t fit properly, folks will still express opinions. It also opens other challenges like for example tolerance, grind consistency, particle distribution, optimal running of the motor and so on.

I remember some discussions here if only Niche were to offer a zero with swappable burrs between conical and flat.

The point is people will have similar reservations / views re-the swappable conical and flat burrs.

Of course, the Duo swap is different, which I think is a very smart move. It would surprise if this does not become a norm, going forward.

Don’t think the businesses can satisfy every one! 🤷

DavecUK

FadedFrontiers One notable video a year later voicing some criticisms does not represent the majority of them and it’s not really evidence of an agenda either.

This is very true, in fact, if any agenda existed it was around clickbait Niche killer titles..

There is also no understanding from reviewers as to why it was made in the first place, so they project their own thought imperatives onto that process. e.g. Niche reacting to the Timemore, or Niche reacting to competition…which if you think about it, is obviously nonsense.

The reason it was made was because people asked and more importantly…“because it was there” to be done. Development and discussion started more than 2 years ago with prototype grinders actually built over 1 year ago, many prototypes continuously evolving to be better than the last. Testing with real people over 6 months. Long before people had heard about timemore 78s etc.. and even some of the influencers who describe themselves modestly as the burr man?!

Giphy - Climbing Nepal GIF by Bookatrekking.com

The project certainly hasn’t been rushed…

Cuprajake

FadedFrontiers

There’s more to the ‘agenda’ for me, but I cba dragging this forum through more mud, so I’ll leave it be.

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