Shipping July released today. it could of course be an April fools joke. Albeit a strange one… https://www.nichecoffee.co.uk/products/niche-duo?variant=43187239846019

@"Igm45"#p40972 Not an April fools joke….people have ordered.

Some time to launch! 😏 I see from the specs that it's physically bigger than the Zero….assuming this is - at least in part - to house a bigger motor for the flats?

I still believe it's April fool's, too good to be true….

@"[unknown]"#p41017 Have you seen he full manual you can download and read ?

@"MattH"#p41026 https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0081/2076/2450/files/N685_INSTRUCTION_BOOK_ROW_83F_1_080323_WEB.pdf?v=1680015642

Two excellent videos from Jake. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKdyBJ7TkhU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C90i5RVoBpo

@"DavecUK"#p41257 There are a couple of others there now too. (why does the plug change colour 🤔???)

> @"Del_UK"#p41290 (why does the plug change colour 🤔???) Dunno? RH Lead swaps colour as well in the starting clip

Can I chuck my hat into the ring? Right, first off, this is not an engineering review. I was lucky enough to be asked by Niche back in October, to accept the latest version of the Niche Duo. I had to sign an NDA and that was that. A couple of days later, a package turned up and I thought, I recognise that. On inspecting the packaging, it is quite clearly designed with the Zero experience in mind. The packaging has instructions printed on it for starters. Once you open the outer box, there is a strap/handle to help you lift the inner box meaning that you do not have to tip it upside down to force it out! I received a gleaming white model that arrived with espresso burrs fitted to it. A quick glance through the comprehensive handbook to make sure that there was nothing I needed to be aware of, and coffee here we come! When I dial in a new grinder, I always pull the first shot at whatever it arrives set to and take my reference from there. The third shot was spot on. 16 gms on an espresso setting takes me 16 seconds. I did not suffer from any static, the grounds were nice and fluffy. I believe the burrs originate from Mazzer (both espresso and brewed). Eventually, I thought it was time to try swapping the burrs over. Again, no help from Niche. They selected me as tester for their idiots instructions, and I feel well qualified for that role. I have made a video that I will post and it took me 70 seconds or so to swap over. You raise the lid, unscrew the silver dial, remove the screw to tighten down the top burr set, then remove it. Push down on the bottom burr set and remove. The process is then repeated with the brewed burrs (these are a different colour, blue) in reverse of course. I am deliberately keeping this summary vague! I have no idea as to how they get a big flat to be retention free. Having swapped the burrs over many times, and since access allows with ease, whenever I clean it out the retention is minimal. If I remember I will weigh it at some point but as any Niche Zero owners knows, you learn to trust your machine and just accept the claims! https://youtu.be/63Iv5gUy1JQ https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqlKJZjg_ZPsfdrHkp5cDIoL_KjSXhE5E5st-00/?igshid=Mzc1MmZhNjY=

@"Del_UK"#p41290 because I have a white extension lead, which I took out of the vid 😂

Niche duo - 83mm flat

Cuprajake

Yeah did that a while ago when I first got it.

I use the Mrs as a test subject to as her coffee preferences are different to mine. Milk drinker med beans but of the ‘normal’ nutty, choc flavours

A blind test with the duo Vs the niche in milk with two different beans and she picked out the duo everytime.

Blind testing Vs the major for me is harder and I’d say half the time I’d pick wrong

You get more of a sense when back to back tasting, blind is very difficult but side by side you can taste the differences easier and more notable.

I still love my major and I don’t mind work flow, the niche just presents it in a better package,

Not everyone can get away with the size, I did have to shim my major to get the results I got from the out the box duo

Used majors doserless are still £400-500

Cuprajake

Size comparison

dfk41

If you were a company that had had success without the help of Youtube influencers several years ago, and you had made a major investment into a new product, and you accept the market has moved on in to how you market things, and your firm does not have to take the Crowdfunding route…….would you want ‘home’ reviewers or people who only have an agenda to try and destroy something?

Sure, the video was polished, did not show anything from start to finish, including a shot being prepared, ground and pulled, but apart from our venerable hosts videos, who does? The important things for me, were no gremlins came out which matches my own experiences, the green bean grinding (sourced from our very own @Cuprajake) looked impressive, especially when a competitor was briefly shown failing. This puts to be the pretend worries of the doubters over motor and gearbox power. Other influencers will have their own take, but if I were Niche, I would be quite happy with that first review

FadedFrontiers

dfk41 I don’t quite follow, the majority of coffee influencers not only raved about the Niche Zero at the time but were all sent units. It was in the background of practically every major coffee YouTuber’s videos. One notable video a year later voicing some criticisms does not represent the majority of them and it’s not really evidence of an agenda either.

Ernie1

Seeing them side by side with the Major now I realise why I’m not a fan of the design. It looks like a Morphy Richards or Kenwood ‘appliance’ rather than a machine. Not necessarily a bad thing but I suppose in the same way a Sage Oracle and an ECM E61 look different.

At £800 I’d just like it to look more like a high end piece of equipment like other coffee gear at that price point. I think this is where things like the Timemore and Fellow do a good job. It’s an evolution of grinder design but has a refined look to it.

Cuprajake

Id love to see a breakdown of who bought the zero

Was it was nerds like us or more the normal Joe public John Lewis sage users.

Agree on the visual they are very food processor, looks have grown on me, but I prefer the majors looks.

MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake - I was thinking the same. Was thinking of making a poll here to see how many of us pre-ordered.

Also, I noticed they are selling though retailers now? (At least in Oz)

https://alternativebrewing.com.au/products/niche-zero-grinder
https://alternativebrewing.com.au/products/niche-duo-coffee-grinder

Ernie1

Cuprajake Was it was nerds like us or more the normal Joe public John Lewis sage users.

Exactly this, I’d like to see this also.

If it’s the latter then I can understand the design direction somewhat. I mean Sage machines sell like hotcakes too. Although having said that, we’ve got a Kitchenaid that looks the same as it did 50 years ago. Le Creuset etc.

I think the price point thing carries through to other goods also, like a £30 mixer isn’t going to look like a Kitchenaid. £200 Dualit or Rowlett toaster looks nicer than a £15 Argos one. Not that I’d ever spend £200 on a toaster…

The thing is though it hasn’t stopped it becoming one of the most popular grinders ever, but I think the £800 grinder audience will be more discerning.

I’d be interested to see a poll on how many people bought a Zero regardless but weren’t fans of the design.

MediumRoastSteam

Ernie1 - I think he design makes sense. It’s just the same looks and principles of the Zero. It sold like hot cakes, it’s trialed and tested. Why change? So one would assume that the audience who would think of buying the Zero would also now consider the Duo. Or even those who have a Zero might consider upgrading to the Duo, or have it additionally. It will look like a straight replacement, or both will go well together. It makes total sense.

For Joe public, who goes to John Lewis and buys a coffee machine, it will be interesting. Take a look at the niche coffee website and tell me whether you, pretending, as a consumer who wouldn’t know much about coffee (let alone what a burr grinder is, needless to say conical vs flat burrs!) would comfortably be able to understand the advantages of one over the other, apart from one being capable of making “exceptional espresso” and “flawless filter”. The other making “excellent espresso and filter brewing”. They both make great coffee according to them. But one is 37% cheaper.

I am really looking forward to see how the sales will pan out. One of the reasons I’m hanging on.

The Zero sold like hot cakes because it was ground breaking. There was nothing like it, and the price was significantly lower than anything else that could be compared to it. In a way, it still is. The Duo is another revolutionary design. Nothing like it around. But it doesn’t come with a friendly price tag, and the audience has shifted somehow for anyone who just want to make a coffee (any kind of coffee, really) to a more selective and knowledgeable audience. One could not even say flat is better than conical… because some of us prefer conicals anyway, so it’s not necessarily an upgrade for the enthusiasts either.

Cuprajake

Depends maybe the success of the zero may make more ‘normal’ people look at the duo,

What the duo does is open up big burrs to people who may not have otherwise looked at them. UK pricing anyway

Ernie1

@MediumRoastSteam

Yeah fair points, I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference if I wasn’t pretty seriously into coffee.

That’s made me think though and I’m not sure anyone would buy a Zero unless they were pretty invested in coffee. To even be buying a coffee grinder at all I guess requires someone to be fairly into it.

As you say, it’s best in a class it defined and still relatively unchallenged which suggests people are probably buying it regardless of how it looks.

I might have imagined this but I remember reading when the Zero first came out that the designer behind it had worked for a number of consumer appliance brands, which would explain the design. I don’t mean that negatively at all. Designer’s tend to have a ‘handwriting’, a style if you will, so I’d imagine that’s how the Niche ended up looking like it does.

Had Mr. Mazzer, Dieter Rams, Jon Ive or Pininfarina designed it it would’ve looked different. Not necessarily better, but in line with the things they design.

It’s not an easy thing to design though. I’m a designer, have a Red Dot award and worked under ex-Conran staff and I’d struggle to come up with something that isn’t either just a replica of a Mazzer or something so different it stops looking like a grinder at all.

dfk41

I do not get the negativity. No one is expecting a hard nosed Zero owner to buy one. They are already in coffee heaven having a zero retention, single dosing conical grinder. A lot of those, who dabble with the darker stuff do not do brewed coffee. But, as we saw with Londinium’s development, by sticking with the L1 design they were ignoring the far larger lighter roast market. The Duo I presume, is aimed at the flat burr market, the medium to lighter coffee person who reckons a flat burr allows them to pick out notes a conical cannot. If they want to pick out these notes for espresso and brewed they can now do that with just one grinder. It is not expensive at £799 when looking at what many folks pay. Apart from the DF83 which does not come standard with 2 sets of burrs let alone Mazzer burrs, what can you buy that comes anywhere close?

DavecUK

dfk41 I do not get the negativity.

I don’t think it’s negativity, just people voicing preferences….

LMSC

I think, if Niche were to give burrs options, I would rather like them to go a full circle, offer Niche Flat BYOB - no burr or Uno or Duo. They can provide the users to buy carrier(s) as options to mount the burrs.

People would still prefer trying other burrs like SSP, which may require some customisation of the carrier.

It is up to owners to choose compatible burrs set. If the carriers don’t fit properly, folks will still express opinions. It also opens other challenges like for example tolerance, grind consistency, particle distribution, optimal running of the motor and so on.

I remember some discussions here if only Niche were to offer a zero with swappable burrs between conical and flat.

The point is people will have similar reservations / views re-the swappable conical and flat burrs.

Of course, the Duo swap is different, which I think is a very smart move. It would surprise if this does not become a norm, going forward.

Don’t think the businesses can satisfy every one! 🤷

DavecUK

FadedFrontiers One notable video a year later voicing some criticisms does not represent the majority of them and it’s not really evidence of an agenda either.

This is very true, in fact, if any agenda existed it was around clickbait Niche killer titles..

There is also no understanding from reviewers as to why it was made in the first place, so they project their own thought imperatives onto that process. e.g. Niche reacting to the Timemore, or Niche reacting to competition…which if you think about it, is obviously nonsense.

The reason it was made was because people asked and more importantly…“because it was there” to be done. Development and discussion started more than 2 years ago with prototype grinders actually built over 1 year ago, many prototypes continuously evolving to be better than the last. Testing with real people over 6 months. Long before people had heard about timemore 78s etc.. and even some of the influencers who describe themselves modestly as the burr man?!

Giphy - Climbing Nepal GIF by Bookatrekking.com

The project certainly hasn’t been rushed…

Cuprajake

FadedFrontiers

There’s more to the ‘agenda’ for me, but I cba dragging this forum through more mud, so I’ll leave it be.

MediumRoastSteam

@dfk41 - I’m not being negative (if the comment was aimed at me). As I said, I really like the grinder. I might even buy one eventually. The usability is great, the grinder is a pleasure to use in terms of workflow (it’s a a niche after all), but I (me, myself) don’t need the Duo concept. If there’s another grinder out there which can offer me more with one burr set for less or same money, then for me that wins. If I was into filter, I would have bought one on April 1st (launch day), as I know how well designed, trialed and tested this grinder has been. And… I’m not interested in SSP burrs either. Not at the price they retail at! 🤣🤣🤣🤣

dfk41

MediumRoastSteam I’m not being negative (if the comment was aimed at me).

It was not!

tompoland

Cuprajake If the vid is polished then it’s a fake review, if it’s filmed on a potato like mine then it’s boring

100% agree, come on (some) people, many of these reviewers bust their xxxx putting this stuff out.

Feel free to have a crack yourself and post a review/video of your kit to try and help others. You will undoubtedley help other members and it may give you a greater appreciation for what goes into publishing a review.

chlorox

Surely the more accurate info on a product that out, the better it is for consumers. And the more well presented and professional the recording and editing of video clips on the product, the more entertaining and less painful it is to watch them. I agree that there is no need to castigate and automatically relegate to the category of fake review just because the video is well edited; likewise it is not a good idea to switch off ones critical faculties just because the eeview is by a forum member either. We need to watch and read everything with our filters switched on. If any of these reviews turn out to be inaccurate, that will become apparent as more user reports ans reviews come out.

On the niche duo, I don’t need a dual use grinder as I only drink espresso based coffee. I also would have preferred a significantly cheaper dedicated 83mm flat burr grinder from niche to provide some serious competition to the df83 and the timemore 78s. As it is, the current price of the niche duo rules it out of my rather meagre budget for another grinder.

dfk41

chlorox So, explain the difference between buying a relatively modest grinder like your DF64, then spending £ on additional burrs, and buying a grinder that comes with two sets of burrs but only using one set?

LMSC

chlorox I also would have preferred a significantly cheaper dedicated 83mm flat burr grinder from niche to provide some serious competition to the df83

The comparative costs are by local currency. The DF83 is £699 (discounted), while the original price is £799 for itamil burrs set. If I add the cost of Mazzer burrs set for espresso, the cost is £779 / £879 for us in the U.K.

Of course, the DF83 is cheaper in the US than Niche. It’s the business model, which Niche needs to address should they be interested.

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