I'm currently using a bambino plus with a niche zero; getting good results but the consistency doesn't seem there. So I'm looking at an upgrade in the next 6 months or so. It needs to be relatively small, so no lever machines. This is one of the big pros of the bambino plus - My girlfriend gets to have 50% of the kitchen space after my coffee equipment is in situ! I'd far prefer it have good automatic milk frothing. I like the process of making good coffee, but the automatic milker is good too for hot chocolates and such. It needs to work pretty much out of the box. I'm not interested in mechanically modding it, though electronically I'd be more comfortable. I guess I'm looking for something more on the automatic side. The primary goal is simply good coffee. I pull 2-5 shots of espresso a day usually, dependent on guests etc. Budget around £1000 though can go higher if needed. (Or if all paths lead to the Bianca) Not urgent, so can wait around for the right machine. Ideas?

ECM Puristika? EDIT: Oops, just caught the bit about milk, so that rules the Puristika out..

I'm not aware of any espresso machines that have automatic milk frothing aside from Sage/Breville. It's not very difficult with a tiny bit of practise and will likely end up with better milk than any automatic setup. I even got my other half to make her own latte's and she's motorically challenged (her own words).

@"Dusk"#p41409 Mine is similar (though ironically an engineer) so it's something we're having to negotiate. The Sage/Brevilles are nice in that you can just put the milk on and do your cleanup and such whilst it's going. Can even do some coffee art from it. I can probably go without the automatic milk frother though it'll mean we have to keep the sage on the counter for a little while as we work out the new one. @"stevenc66"#p41403 Beautiful machine but alas 90%+ of our drinks are milk.

I think you're going to find almost any more premium machine outside of Sage, more capable but also likely more work. Most of the Sage machines are very much built towards simplicity. A Bianca will almost certainly make better coffee but it likely won't be any easier

For me I wanted a bianca ideally BUT the sage dual boiler was so much cheaper especially after getting a discount on the dynamic duo and flogging the grinder straight away I effectively paid half the bianca. The dual boiler makes great coffee and will fit your needs. Reliability seems a bit hit and miss but as you don’t plan to mod with slayer etc. then the 2 year warranty should have you covered. In my opinion the bianca is not twice the machine (does look better), in fact if everything the same (yield, time, pressure, grinder etc) I doubt you would tell them apart.

https://bellabarista.co.uk/collections/outlet/products/vbm-junior-dual-boiler-espresso-machine Bargain dual boiler

If you are willing to just learn a bit about milk frothing, which is really easy, then a good choice is the Lelit Elizabeth. Small form factor might dual boiler machine. I love mine.

Maybe a bit over the top for the home but this machine appears to have an auto-frother 😉 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRTebBz7450 And a tutorial…. I might try this, will report back when I've cleaned the kitchen afterwards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxALjb13b9U

Espresso machine upgrade?

mobius

I love my ECM Classika PID, although I only drink espresso so don’t need the steam - it does have it, but it’s not ‘fast’ for general usage, I believe.

Then again, I have a Nanofoamer Pro backed on Kickstarter for the odd occasion that someone wants a milk drink - I love the ceremony of espresso (even though it can be as simple as lifting a lever and stopping at the desired time/amount, but I really can’t be arsed steaming milk. Pressing a button on the Nanofoamer and having the milk ready once I’ve made the espresso seems to be a great solution in that regard.

If lifting an E61 lever is not automatic enough for espresso, you could look at an Ascaso Steel PID Duo, or the Lelit Elizabeth, as mentioned earlier. It depends on how much ‘tweaking’ you think you’ll want to do, if you fall further down the rabbit hole.

dutchy101

As someone mentioned earlier, I think only the Sage machines do auto milk frothing.

I upgraded ny Bambino Plus to the ACS Minima just over a year ago. If you like a dual boiler with a small footprint and an E61 group but aren’t keen on having to deal with the maintenance of lubing the lever then it’s ideal. I have seen someone on here say they have and can froth the milk with no hands by raising up the pitcher but it won’t switch off unless you turn off the steam yourself.

Manually steaming milk isn’t too much of a chore in my opinion although I started to learn on the Bambino just before I upgraded as it was a concern for me at the time. Why don’t you spend sone time learning on the Bambino before you pull the trigger on anything?

There are good YouTube videos that can teach you how to do it.

Ernie1

Maybe a bit over the top for the home but this machine appears to have an auto-frother 😉

And a tutorial…. I might try this, will report back when I’ve cleaned the kitchen afterwards.

Dusk

Ernie1

It is a cappuccino so the milk is a bit more frothy than a latte

JHCCoffee

In my view, the Lelit E is well designed, decent quality and the best value for money. Hindsight being 20/20, I would have bought the Lelit Bianca. And with even more foresight, I should have bought a lever machine. But I really didn’t understand the benefits of lever machines back then.

The main benefit of the Lelit over the Breville Dual Boiler is a somewhat better quality build and its infinite adjustability (through its programs). It can run fully automatic or manually, both with full control over every parameter. The only very very important thing that is missing is flow control, as has the Bianca.

Take a deep breath and spend the money. Stretch as much as you can. Once you’ve bought it, it’s very costly to further upgrade.

MediumRoastSteam

JHCCoffee The main benefit of the Lelit over the Breville Dual Boiler is a somewhat better quality build and its infinite adjustability (through its programs). It can run fully automatic or manually, both with full control over every parameter

Well… I’m not so sure if what you are saying is meaningful or even beneficial. For example, with the DB you can adjust the pre infusion to a set time and pressure. You can have a 6bar pre-infusion for 30 seconds. The DB has volumetric and timed controls.

Which features of the Elizabeth do you prefer over the DB?

I personally think the DB has better features than the Elizabeth.

But it’s been a while since I had coffee from one, and don’t remember everything.

JHCCoffee

MediumRoastSteam I personally think the DB has better features than the Elizabeth.

Valid point. I have not used a BDB, so you may be right.

I did own a Breville Duo Pro and was not happy with its build quality. For example the group head plate into which the screen is bolted was/is plastic; the female bolt hole stripped and the plate could not be readily replaced. The pump also failed. Most of the inner parts were/are plastic. It was/is a cheap piece of kit that lasted less than 5 years.

Maybe the BDB has better build quality. Maybe. But I personally will never ever again buy a Breville product or recommend one. Too many household appliances are built too cheaply, requiring too early replacement, which is not good for the environment or the pocket book. Towards that end my only concern about Lelit is that they have been bought by Breville, such that Breville may already have begun to cut manufacturing costs and quality out of the Lelit E. Hopefully not.

Just my 2 cents.

JHCCoffee

MediumRoastSteam Well… I’m not so sure if what you are saying is meaningful or even beneficial.

PS I was just trying to be helpful. Please do be a tad more respectful in future. Everyone is entitled to their own ideas and opinions.

JHCCoffee

MediumRoastSteam Which features of the Elizabeth do you prefer over the DB?

Mainly I like the extent of programming control. There are few machines at it’s price point with that extent of control. The inner workings are also more accessible than many machines.

The one key feature that is missing is the ability to control pressure, unless you adjust the OPV or do a dimmer mod. There are also still some build quality deficiencies, such as the steam valve. And removing and replacing the top (to access the OPV) is a pain.

So there are trade offs. I’d still buy the Lelit E over the BDB. But in hindsight I’d have stretched more and bought the Lelit Bianca.

JonWoo187

JHCCoffee No doubt with Breville seriously cutting corners on their crap. Of course they will have their supporters, but to each their own. I personally can fix anything in front of me and welcome a challenge, but don’t want to have to constantly deal with parts failure on a regular basis with fixes required for simple daily reliability.

Not sure about cross-posting as some forums cringe over it, but here is a recent post showing Breville DB ‘build quality’ and their excuse for it…

https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/breville-dual-boiler-grouphead-flaking-t86293.html

MediumRoastSteam

JHCCoffee - Sorry if I came across the wrong way. Apologies. My comment wasn’t against you, but on your comment comparing the DB with the Elizabeth in terms of features, which I don’t think is quite right - and hence my comment. Anyway, point taken.

back on topic…

I went through this very dilemma when I bought the Elizabeth, as one of the contenders was the SDB. For me, the reasons I chose the Elizabeth was:

Availability of parts: If something goes pop with the Elizabeth, I can source that pretty easily, as most of the parts are box standard and ready available. Group gaskets, temperature probes, safety valves, vacuum breakers, expansion valves, solenoids, portafilter selections. When I tried to do a similar search for the DB, it was hard, and there was either ebay or in the UK, one specific vendor.
As you say: Build quality. I’m not saying the Elizabeth is the best, but the DB is very plasticky and you only need to google to find out quite a lot of them failing outside of warranty. When failing within warranty, at least in the UK, that’s fine, as retailers or Sage (Breville) pretty much replaces or fix them without further questions. Saying that, there are many owners out there who never had problems with their DBs. Maybe it got better over time.

and the fun fact… Breville bought Lelit last year. Although Breville doesn’t seem to be interfering with Lelit at present, I am just wondering how long it will be until Breville gets more involved in Lelit affairs.

capuchin

I think I’ve settled my eye on the La Spaziale S1 Vivaldi II because:

It’s available fairly cheap, looks to be £150-250 from many places
It’s a ‘real’ coffee machine in terms of mechanical tinkering and learning how it works
It’s pretty ubiquitous and design hasn’t changed much over 20 years or so, so parts/knowledge is easy
It’s fairly small, and milk steaming is quite easy.

Could be a good learning machine. Any big holes in my logic?

MediumRoastSteam

capuchin - this was a machine I was looking at recently. I know people used to really rave about then back in the day - but not sure how it compares to machines these days.

They cost approx. £1.6k (dual boiler) and have a 54mm group which seems to be quite a popular choice and due to a deeper basket than the usual 58mm ones, a lot more forgiving.

Bella Barista was stocking them until recently, but seems to have disappeared.

capuchin

@MediumRoastSteam Yes my research indicates they are a little outdated [which is probably why they are being sold off cheap on ebay etc] but still a very good machine. I think most places are still stocking the ‘mini’ version (aka non piped). The Bambino plus is a 54mm basket too so it makes sense. I quite like the fact it’s old, and therefore anything that can go wrong should be well documented and researched. It also seems to be a super simple machine.

Maybe somebody like @DavecUK knows if modern machines have a significant advantage.

DavecUK

capuchin Maybe somebody like @DavecUK knows if modern machines have a significant advantage.

They do. The S1 Vivaldi II suffers from a few things modern machines don’t at least when I last reviewed them a long time ago now, Issues are:

You can run the rotary pump from a bottle, but it won’t prime when hot if you run out of water
the group is purely heated by conduction (Boiler is behind group and not huge) with a 0.45l boiler, arguable not large enough with the control systems it uses
No PID temp control is much more primitive, brew temps are in the range but not tightly controlled
It never overshoots temp….ever! of course we know that’s impossible and the software simply won’t register an overshoot. I tried it!
Steam Boiler is quite large for home use, 2.5 litre, but fortunately can switch it off when not used.
certain very expensive proprietary components (perhaps they use industry std SSRs nowadays but back in the day some weird triac thing with fins.
The S1 specifically had an RS suppressor on it that would cause certain RCD controlled mains system (with the RCD in the fuse box) to Nuisance trip if it is already close to the tripping point..I reported this to them but was ignored.
A lot of plastic, with a tendency for screws to strip threads if worked on by the careless.
Descaling is a pain as it’s a solenoid operated water wand, so no way to heat up switch off and drain the water as the solenoid won’t be working (I believe when the steam boiler is switched off the solenoid is disabled (they may have changed that over the years)
No last shot protection (I hadn’t invented the concept back then)

The good points…

it’s quiet
it can produce a decent shot.
very good steam

I do think it’s yesterdays machine though.

Cuprajake

There was a cheap dual boiler on here for sale.

capuchin

Cuprajake Not seen any S1’s on here. Could you point me to a link please?

MediumRoastSteam

capuchin think he’s referring to the Evo Leva in he classifieds current at a bargain price.

capuchin

MediumRoastSteam I’d absolutely love that, and seriously considered making an offer as it’s a fantastic machine and price. Looks great too. Unfortunately I just don’t have room in my kitchen for it, so I’d probably need to put it on a trolley in the living room or something. (Already passed up on a mazzer major for the same reason!)

MediumRoastSteam

capuchin - ha! I’m one step ahead of you: I managed to convince my wife to buy a better sideboard for the dining room - before I had a cheap trolley. The real intention was that I would, eventually, upgrade the Elizabeth. On the positive side, I can now accommodate a bigger and deeper machine, up to 45cm from rear to front feet. However, that cannot accommodate the Vesuvius machines, they are 50cm deep!

Cuprajake

No sorry it was that duetto, but it’s sold now. Sorry my bad

LMSC

MediumRoastSteam I can now accommodate a bigger and deeper machine

For a moment I thought of only Vostok, until I read the 45cm! 😅

capuchin

DavecUK That’s a brilliant review of it, thanks! It’s out then for sure.