I'm currently using a bambino plus with a niche zero; getting good results but the consistency doesn't seem there. So I'm looking at an upgrade in the next 6 months or so. It needs to be relatively small, so no lever machines. This is one of the big pros of the bambino plus - My girlfriend gets to have 50% of the kitchen space after my coffee equipment is in situ! I'd far prefer it have good automatic milk frothing. I like the process of making good coffee, but the automatic milker is good too for hot chocolates and such. It needs to work pretty much out of the box. I'm not interested in mechanically modding it, though electronically I'd be more comfortable. I guess I'm looking for something more on the automatic side. The primary goal is simply good coffee. I pull 2-5 shots of espresso a day usually, dependent on guests etc. Budget around £1000 though can go higher if needed. (Or if all paths lead to the Bianca) Not urgent, so can wait around for the right machine. Ideas?

ECM Puristika? EDIT: Oops, just caught the bit about milk, so that rules the Puristika out..

I'm not aware of any espresso machines that have automatic milk frothing aside from Sage/Breville. It's not very difficult with a tiny bit of practise and will likely end up with better milk than any automatic setup. I even got my other half to make her own latte's and she's motorically challenged (her own words).

@"Dusk"#p41409 Mine is similar (though ironically an engineer) so it's something we're having to negotiate. The Sage/Brevilles are nice in that you can just put the milk on and do your cleanup and such whilst it's going. Can even do some coffee art from it. I can probably go without the automatic milk frother though it'll mean we have to keep the sage on the counter for a little while as we work out the new one. @"stevenc66"#p41403 Beautiful machine but alas 90%+ of our drinks are milk.

I think you're going to find almost any more premium machine outside of Sage, more capable but also likely more work. Most of the Sage machines are very much built towards simplicity. A Bianca will almost certainly make better coffee but it likely won't be any easier

For me I wanted a bianca ideally BUT the sage dual boiler was so much cheaper especially after getting a discount on the dynamic duo and flogging the grinder straight away I effectively paid half the bianca. The dual boiler makes great coffee and will fit your needs. Reliability seems a bit hit and miss but as you don’t plan to mod with slayer etc. then the 2 year warranty should have you covered. In my opinion the bianca is not twice the machine (does look better), in fact if everything the same (yield, time, pressure, grinder etc) I doubt you would tell them apart.

https://bellabarista.co.uk/collections/outlet/products/vbm-junior-dual-boiler-espresso-machine Bargain dual boiler

If you are willing to just learn a bit about milk frothing, which is really easy, then a good choice is the Lelit Elizabeth. Small form factor might dual boiler machine. I love mine.

I love my ECM Classika PID, although I only drink espresso so don't need the steam - it does have it, but it's not 'fast' for general usage, I believe. Then again, I have a Nanofoamer Pro backed on Kickstarter for the odd occasion that someone wants a milk drink - I love the ceremony of espresso (even though it can be as simple as lifting a lever and stopping at the desired time/amount, but I really can't be arsed steaming milk. Pressing a button on the Nanofoamer and having the milk ready once I've made the espresso seems to be a great solution in that regard. If lifting an E61 lever is not automatic enough for espresso, you could look at an Ascaso Steel PID Duo, or the Lelit Elizabeth, as mentioned earlier. It depends on how much 'tweaking' you think you'll want to do, if you fall further down the rabbit hole.

As someone mentioned earlier, I think only the Sage machines do auto milk frothing. I upgraded ny Bambino Plus to the ACS Minima just over a year ago. If you like a dual boiler with a small footprint and an E61 group but aren't keen on having to deal with the maintenance of lubing the lever then it's ideal. I have seen someone on here say they have and can froth the milk with no hands by raising up the pitcher but it won't switch off unless you turn off the steam yourself. Manually steaming milk isn't too much of a chore in my opinion although I started to learn on the Bambino just before I upgraded as it was a concern for me at the time. Why don't you spend sone time learning on the Bambino before you pull the trigger on anything? There are good YouTube videos that can teach you how to do it.

Maybe a bit over the top for the home but this machine appears to have an auto-frother 😉 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRTebBz7450 And a tutorial…. I might try this, will report back when I've cleaned the kitchen afterwards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxALjb13b9U

Espresso machine upgrade?

MediumRoastSteam

capuchin - ha! I’m one step ahead of you: I managed to convince my wife to buy a better sideboard for the dining room - before I had a cheap trolley. The real intention was that I would, eventually, upgrade the Elizabeth. On the positive side, I can now accommodate a bigger and deeper machine, up to 45cm from rear to front feet. However, that cannot accommodate the Vesuvius machines, they are 50cm deep!

LMSC

MediumRoastSteam I can now accommodate a bigger and deeper machine

For a moment I thought of only Vostok, until I read the 45cm! 😅

DavecUK

capuchin Maybe somebody like @DavecUK knows if modern machines have a significant advantage.

They do. The S1 Vivaldi II suffers from a few things modern machines don’t at least when I last reviewed them a long time ago now, Issues are:

You can run the rotary pump from a bottle, but it won’t prime when hot if you run out of water
the group is purely heated by conduction (Boiler is behind group and not huge) with a 0.45l boiler, arguable not large enough with the control systems it uses
No PID temp control is much more primitive, brew temps are in the range but not tightly controlled
It never overshoots temp….ever! of course we know that’s impossible and the software simply won’t register an overshoot. I tried it!
Steam Boiler is quite large for home use, 2.5 litre, but fortunately can switch it off when not used.
certain very expensive proprietary components (perhaps they use industry std SSRs nowadays but back in the day some weird triac thing with fins.
The S1 specifically had an RS suppressor on it that would cause certain RCD controlled mains system (with the RCD in the fuse box) to Nuisance trip if it is already close to the tripping point..I reported this to them but was ignored.
A lot of plastic, with a tendency for screws to strip threads if worked on by the careless.
Descaling is a pain as it’s a solenoid operated water wand, so no way to heat up switch off and drain the water as the solenoid won’t be working (I believe when the steam boiler is switched off the solenoid is disabled (they may have changed that over the years)
No last shot protection (I hadn’t invented the concept back then)

The good points…

it’s quiet
it can produce a decent shot.
very good steam

I do think it’s yesterdays machine though.

capuchin

DavecUK That’s a brilliant review of it, thanks! It’s out then for sure.

JonWoo187

JHCCoffee No doubt with Breville seriously cutting corners on their crap. Of course they will have their supporters, but to each their own. I personally can fix anything in front of me and welcome a challenge, but don’t want to have to constantly deal with parts failure on a regular basis with fixes required for simple daily reliability.

Not sure about cross-posting as some forums cringe over it, but here is a recent post showing Breville DB ‘build quality’ and their excuse for it…

https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/breville-dual-boiler-grouphead-flaking-t86293.html

MediumRoastSteam

JonWoo187 - let’s hope they learn some lessons from Lelit and not the other way round! 🤦‍♂️🫤

JonWoo187

MediumRoastSteam Makes no difference to me as I wouldn’t have either brand!

Cuprajake

JonWoo187 what do you have?

JonWoo187

Cuprajake Silvia Pro… simple, dependable, top notch build quality and very capable!

MediumRoastSteam

LMSC LMSC, out of curiosity, what’s the distance between rear feet and front feet on the Evo?

LMSC

MediumRoastSteam Here are the details!

Am excited for you! 🤣

MediumRoastSteam

LMSC - not the Vostok, for the Evo please :)

LMSC

MediumRoastSteam

The depth from the edge of the back panel to the front edge of the front feet is 487.5 mm (in the case of old style legs). I wouldn’t know what the dimensions are as we have rails now. :-)

Edit :

These dimensions are from the user guide.

Cuprajake

Depends on the model you buy on my old feet model the distance is ,

40mm from the back of the machine to the middle of the back foot

430mm from middle of the back foot to the front foot.

40mm from middle of the front foot to the front of the drop tray back foot is 50mm wide front foot 30mm wide

MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake - thank you. So it might fit. Just. 👍

Cuprajake

Amberale

I am retro fitting my 2metre long sideboard with a 670mm deep top(up from 470).
This includes building a steel subframe on industrial castors the same depth for stability.
There will also be a coach bolt into the wall frame so the bugger never even thinks about tipping over on me.

mobius

JonWoo187 I considered the Silvia Pro X, but after seeing the reviews, the drip tray put me off - small things, but important to be happy - so I ended up with my ECM Classika PID, which I’m very happy with (The added flow control is a bonus).

There is so much to be said for good build quality and workflow, and absolutely upgrades need a lot of research - ideally hands-on, but for many of us that’s almost impossible. Having said that, I’m hoping I don’t find a need to upgrade personally now. I see these shiny ACS machines, but honestly they wouldn’t be any better for me - just fancy buttons and levers 😉

Back to the original post, it does sound like a dual-boiler for the milk aspect, but I’d absolutely suggest watching videos and reviews especially around workflow and how it fits your expectations. I know that my workflow actually became much simpler when I went to E61 after the Bambino, but that’s more because the Bambino couldn’t hold temperature, didn’t have a shot timer, didn’t have a 3-way solenoid, etc… little things (well, not the temperature) but you have to put more effort in to get to the same place.

Sure, the E61 takes around 45 mins to heat, but I make a glass of water when I wake and switch on the machine, then when I’m ready for coffee it’s good to go. You just need what best fits in your daily flow.

JonWoo187

mobius Yes the drip tray is a bit shallow, but very little water makes it into the tray compared to other machines. I have never been one to flush any machine directly into the tray and use a cup to catch that, so the only discharge that ends up in the tray is from the 3-way. I don’t think Rancilio is off base with the design as there’s simply no need to have a tray that can hold a ton more.

I’ve had a handful of machines over the years and after having a V1 Silvia that I did quite a few mods to I decided to get the Pro version. Not for the dual boiler design as I rarely use steam, but it’s a machine that will no doubt work well for me as long as I expect it to. I don’t buy in to the current fad of profiling, preinfusion, daily burr swap, etc. as IMBHO those are training wheels for those that can’t dial a machine in the old school way. Main focus for me for some time now has been on the coffee itself. I have a very capable machine and 2 grinders (manual/electric) and can dial in precisely how I want with green selection and roasting as that’s by far the most important variable at the end of the day.

mobius

JonWoo187

It wasn’t so much the size of the drip tray for me, but the ‘lip’/angle it needed to be removed. A small detail, but for me would cause so much hassle/mess. I can see how it’s not a problem for everyone. I never used to flush into the drip tray on the Bambino (speaking of tiny/non-existant) but now on the Classika I actually used it for everything, and then simply rinse at the end - again, finding a workflow that suited me, and now am used to.

I have a very capable machine and 2 grinders (manual/electric) and can dial in precisely how I want with green selection and roasting as that’s by far the most important variable at the end of the day.

Absolutely. The key is getting a machine that ‘just works’ with whatever your process is. Once you’re there, anything else is just ‘shiny’. The main problem is discovering that setup, as for many people there’s nowhere to go and just ‘try’ all the options.

It’s great to hear when folks have a setup that they’re happy with - more expensive/complex is absolutely not always better. I’ve gone back from my Vario+ for grinding espresso to a Comandante C40 as it’s just a better fit for how I make coffee. Would a Niche be a better fit for me ? 🤷🏻 maybe one day I’ll try it, but for the moment, I know that I’m not having problems that need a change in tool.

JonWoo187

mobius An easy solution for me is for quite a few yrs now I haven’t emptied the drip tray, but keep a few thick sponges in it, which absorbs all water and I simply rinse them after every daily use, wipe the drip tray and it’s like new the next morning. I wash the sponges often to keep things sanitary and never the least bit messy.

No doubt people tend to have that mentality of ‘needing’ something else/new, but in time you should just realize what works for your daily use and work on maximizing that.

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