Continuing the $365 portafilter theme, I give you ... ta daaaa... the moonraker... https://youtu.be/6Xu3pWOPVdA Let the howls of derision begin!

I may as well get in first: with the cost of a unifilter and a moonraker you could buy a new Breville Dual Boiler. Any yet the Ultra Moonraker sold out in two hours. Not sure how many units that was but I suspect it was a decent number. I guess that there is still plenty of money around when they can sell a moonraker for around $US500 which does the job of a paperclip or Dave's toothpick. Mind you, he must be on at least his third one by now. I know, I know, it's better than a paperclip or a toothpick ... or is it? Not saying I wouldn't buy, just saying it's amazing what's happening at the top end of the market.

But then if it wasn't excruciatingly expensive, it wouldn't be a Weber. I mentioned in another thread that I was fortunate enough to have a chat with Douglas Weber when at MICE last year. I was trying to convince him to develop a hybrid grinder but he wasn't having any of it because he didn't think that it would achieve anything more than a normal pre-breaker on a large conical like an 83mm Mazzer Robur (HG-1 and 2, Key) . There's a slight chance to be knows a lot more about these things than me but nevertheless he was very patient with my persistent pleadings. The upshop of the conversation was that he didn't want to develop any products unless it was going to make a difference. Something new or something better or something different. And you would have to say that he's consistently stuck to that philosophy right from the outset. Color me impressed.

While it’s staggeringly expensive, it is definitely a thing of beauty. I’m going to stick with my piece wood with a few needles I though

This seems to be the way the coffee industry is going……god help us!

Weber at this point are taking the pee with the prices The guy is using his apple knowledge very well Fool and his money comes to mind. But hey if you can afford it then why not Ive only ever had one Weber product the bean cellers and they lasted less than a year. Each to their own but this is a bit ott for me.

As a fan of Swiss mechanical watches, I approve.

Question is… those cogs are needed in a watch or a clock. But why are they needed in a distribution tool? 🤔

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p42569 Because without them the $485 markup on a standard WDT tool would be an even bigger ask, even for Weber!

To be fair I do really like it, fantastic piece of engineering and WDT aside I can see it bringing a little moment of joy every time it’s used. Obviously very expensive taken at face value but I suppose the coffee equivalent of a Leica or Patek.

They are defo going for the James Bond vibe with that music… I notice Moonraker has the TM after it.. wonder if they had to license the name (or they have). Love the look - very mechanical watch… but wow.. I like a gadget but would draw the line there ! @"tompoland"#121 There is a standard version you can still buy - and 150 dollars cheaper 👍

Weber moonraker

DavecUK

tompoland If it is the Key, what do make of the design in respect to the drive shaft? I had concerns that a knock could create an alignment issue.

It’s a long shaft and I would imagine alignment is an issue for them generally. There’s just lots I didn’t like about it and if I had paid that sort of money, I wouldn’t be too pleased.

Same with the EG1, I also found it unremarkable in terms of espresso, americano quality….the Kafatek Monolith really shows up the EG1 shortcomings by being better in every way possible.

workflow
taste
burrs
design
build

chlorox

DavecUK

I am interested in trying out a 98mm grinder as it represents a different enough profile from my 64mm grinders to usefully try out in my view. However, whilr the kafatek max looks to be a great grinder but the sticker shock is just too much for my meagre budget. I am holding out for a much cheaper 98mm grinder to emerge in the next couple of years that produces good enough results to challenge a Max…

Pompeyexile

tompoland The upshop of the conversation was that he didn’t want to develop any products unless it was going to make a difference. Something new or something better or something different.

Well, does that represent a product that makes a difference?…hmm…yes, to your bank balance.
Something new….it’s a WDT tool, so is it really?
Something better… Some with needle stirrers or ‘toothpicks’ may disagree. Also, has it been proven under laboratory conditions that coffee tastes better against other WDT tools?
Something different…Well yes, it is different (more complicated) in design to other WDT tools out there.

Something for those with so much money they just want and can afford the most expesive of everything…🤑

It is a lovely piece like an expensive watch. Would I buy one even if I won the lottery?… Nope! The same as I wouldn’t spend a fortune on a watch. I would rather give the money to charity.

Just my opinion loik.

chlorox

Pompeyexile

On prices, some tools are going to cost more than our budgets and that’s fine. There are some home enthusiasts who have the wherewithal to purchase a Slayer or a synesso hydra or a LM LEVA X or even a kvdw idro slim jim 2 group machine on their home kitchen counter - is it a waste of money? It maybe to us but it isn’t to them. Live and let live because there’s always something that can give similar results that will arise nearer our price point in the fulness of time.

On performance you don’t know until you try the moonraker for yourself if it will give better performance for you…if the moonraker is too expensive for you, the etsy tool is less than a tenth of its price and has a similar randomised movement but with probably a faster spin.

JonWoo187

Pompeyexile Hilarious how some do look for lab/science ‘data’ as numbers will never match taste, experience, etc. People really should just focus on what works for them and not buy into all the hyped garbage littering daily life as we know it. I was stirring clumps when John Weiss was in diapers and still use the same tool I came up with way back then. The fanboy spin some put on basic techniques is a bit much.

JonWoo187

DavecUK How about over hyped/rated garbage, bwahaha? IMBHO it makes no difference how innovative/quality built a device/tool is if the manufacturer has less than stellar post sale support, etc.

Cuprajake

Problems with 98mm grinders is the burrs are £500

That’s pretty much the price of a duo, so your going to be £1500 for a cheap 98mm grinder imo

chlorox

Cuprajake

Hopefully the makers of the df64 and df83 and give the 98mm burr category the “df” treatment. If the dlc burrs in the df64v r said to approach the ssp burrs quality, perhaps they can do the same or better for the 98mm ssp burrs too.

DavecUK

chlorox If the dlc burrs in the df64v r said to approach the ssp burrs quality

Who is saying this, as I actually have a DF64V?

Please remember there is a great deal of difference in a coated tool steel burr vs a coated stainless steel burr. This doesn’t even include manufacturing and materials quality. I have said before the major "quality burr manufacturers cannot use Chinese steel for burrs. Paolo won’t use their stainless in his machines, the quality is just too poor..

chlorox

DavecUK

A member who posted on the coffeesnobs forum…

What do u find about the df64v with its dlc burrs!?

Cuprajake

we have a manufacturing firm next door, massive multi million pound business, and they say the same about steel, that the price has shot up, and depending on origin of manufacture it can be junk, the guy said the some steel on rolls isnt even the same thickness all on the roll.

DavecUK

chlorox My DF64V is working fine, but I honestly have not been able to spend much time on it, as I have other projects.

The issue is that no one really knows that the burrs are good, they can state it, but in all a “member” may not be in possession of many facts. I can’t “know” they won’t be as good as coated tool steel burrs, or even regular tool steel. My suspicion based on past experience and knowledge of the market is that there’s a fairly good chance they won’t be.

That said, you can always put in known brand burrs in it….just factor that additional cost as a realistic possibility.

chlorox

DavecUK

I would be interested to read yoir views on it when u get a chance to really use it properly.in the future. Not to buy it as I am happy with my df64 but more to see whether it changes your mind on the state of Chinese burrs currently.

chlorox

JonWoo187

John weiss got his first degree in 1974 and is a retired college professor. So weiss was probably in diapers in the early 1950s or late 1940s. Since the first true espresso machine was inthw late 1940s, for you to be using wdt when he was in diapers, u would then need to be one of the original pipneers of espresso coffee if u were already using wdt in the late 1940s not to mention u would need to be more than a hundred years old by now.

https://dailycoffeenews.com/2022/12/14/what-is-wdt-in-espresso-we-talked-to-its-creator-john-weiss/

dfk41

I wonder how many folks actually have the taste buds to spot these differences, as opposed to those who think they can spot the differences

tompoland

dfk41 some of the differences are surprisingly stark. I thought I was in the camp of not being able to taste the difference but trial runs in the grinder lab* have confirmed otherwise. A heck of a lot depends on the burrs. SSP HU are poles apart from Gorrilla Gear but then I found the difference between two large conicals to be indistinguishable.

blind taste tests of two different burr sets simultaneously ground and poured. (Just setting up for taste comparisons between the VS3 and 4x premium hand grinders.)

dfk41

tompoland I can only imagine what you are able to experience Tom! I quickly learned to accept that I make two types of drink……..ones I sing and ones I drink!

Cuprajake

back to back to back tasting is easier, tasting from memory is hard, and as everybody tastes different it makes it even harder haha - ive long thought that its very incremental to the point most will make good coffee and up.

Pompeyexile

When I said laboratory testing I really meant blind taste testing in controlled coditions using the same machines, beans, grinders, water etc etc. But… as has been said, some people’s ability to taste any differences once you get down to the minutia of some things varies massively, and again subjectivity may also come into it.

If my taste buds were that good they could define the difference between using a £300 plus WDT tool and a £38 one, then I would probably be the best paid food critic in the world.

Cuprajake

while id never buy one, if it adds consistency then it will help, thats why i love the force tamper

Cuprajake

but if you’re tasting the difference between 25.5% - 26 -26.5% extraction given the device can read out by that much you’re a much better man than me, haha

DavecUK

chlorox as I am happy with my df64 but more to see whether it changes your mind on the state of Chinese burrs currently.

The problem is I don’t get time to use it much at the moment and the burrs might be fine for a while until the coating goes, then deteriorate rapidly. You won’t really know until people put a few 100kg through them and that will take a while.

Apart from stalling which my DF64V had done at 600 rpm and fine espresso grind, the grind quality is fine. I would say the proper minimum usable RPM is at least 1000, if not faster!

I will make one point though, all these companies releasing grinder (and burrs) not properly tested, then we see the problems. How they didn’t realise there was a stalling issue before release, is beyond me. Release testing of new products is in a very sorry state right now…and contrary to popular believe, influencers don’t really test anything.

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