I’m looking for some help to make sure im not missing something in my thought process for upgrading. I’m currently using a Sage Barista Express, have been for 2 years now. Whilst I’m getting good results it’s very inconsistent. With zero changes from shot to shot they can act wildly different. So, it’s time to upgrade. I make around 4 drinks a day. Mostly flat whites and the odd americano. Occasionally I’ll make more when people come over and it would be nice in that situation to spend less time stood in front of the machine. My initial thoughts were to get a Lelit Elizabeth and a Niche. Then, Niche announced the Duo so I stalled on my grinder purchase. And then I saw the Timemore 078s and I decided to back that (I might still pull out if I can be persuaded otherwise). The Elizabeth also got the veto from my wife on looks. So, after much research I narrowed it down the the Lelit Bianca and the ECM Synchronika. With the idea that upping my budget will get me both a machine that should last me for years and have the looks to please my other half. I’m edging towards the Bianca due to size and the space it will sit in my kitchen. I think the ECM would block access to the nook that the grinder will live. I’m also strongly considering the extra cash to get a white or black one purely for aesthetics. And if I’m using it every day for years to come it seems worth it. My question is, is there other machines I should be considering? Maybe a little more money and go for a Libra Micra? Or do I even look at HX machines for my needs, would they serve it? Lastly, does anyone have the white or black Bianca and is happy they chose that over the shiny one? Thanks for the help! I feel very fortunate to be considering these machines and want to get it right.

> @"BrewLiam"#p43831 Lastly, does anyone have the white or black Bianca and is happy they chose that over the shiny one? I have a black Bianca and it does look good…I only wish they did it with the same colour knobs as the stainless finish…I personally think it would look even better [upl-image-preview url=https://i.imgur.com/YFTwm7F.jpeg] Here is the black and stainless side by side.

@"BrewLiam"#p43831 I know you have a space issue. There is an Evo on the classifieds for £2K. An excellent value for money. The new would likely cost £3K. https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/713-acs-vesuvius-evo-leva-for-sale-ps2000/40 Btw, welcome to our forum! 😊

@"DavecUK"#p43833 thanks for the side-by-side comparison Dave, not sure I’ve seen them both like that before. Sold on the colour finish vs the other for sure

@"LMSC"#p43835 thanks LMSC, I’ve been a member over on CFUK for a while, came back to it recently to find it nowhere near as active. Stumbled upon this forum recently and glad I found it :). I saw the Evo, got all excited about it and I love the idea of the Lever. Showed it the other half when I saw it, hoping she said get it. She did not 😂

There's nearly £600 more in price for a black Vs chrome Bianca The Bianca is a cracking machine, it comes with everything you need to start bar a grinder. Theres the ECM and profitec 700 dual boilers The tech in the Bianca seems more sophisticated than the ECM. The duo is a great grinder, none of them will be out before July, Me I'd have another Bianca in a heart beat. While the la marzocco are nice they are very expensive and won't offer you anything the Bianca won't do.

> @"Cuprajake"#p43839 Me I’d have another Bianca in a heart beat. This is the sort of thing that’s good to hear. Read so much about ECM being much better build quality, which maybe they are, but nice to know people would go back to Bianca’s. The sophistication of them is the main draw for me. And £600 seems crazy for the colour, but I can’t help but prefer it. Appreciate the confirmation of what I was thinking.

They will both make excellent coffee. There will be differences in warm up times etc but at this price point you will get good coffee out of most and it start to come down to looks and little details. Like the Bianca you can move the water tank, most machines that's fixed. There's the ACS Vesuvius pressure profiler too. In this price point but left door fill

> @"BrewLiam"#p43838 I saw the Evo, got all excited about it and I love the idea of the Lever. Showed it the other half when I saw it, hoping she said get it. She did Might be worth a second try, it's a cracking machine….produces fabulous coffee and true 15m warmup.

> @"BrewLiam"#p43840 Read so much about ECM being much better build quality, which maybe they are, but nice to know people would go back to Bianca’s The build quality of the Bianca isn't lacking, I honestly can't see anything on mine that screams poor workmanship; the edges are flush and its panels are flat. It's definitely good enough!

> @"BrewLiam"#p43838 I saw the Evo, got all excited about it and I love the idea of the Lever. Showed it the other half when I saw it, hoping she said get it. She did not 😂 Keep trying until she relents. Tell her it’s a fab machine, 2/3 of the new price, makes 10+ bars shots unlike other machines, literally easy to maintain, no need to back flush, blah blah. Don’t take no for an answer. 😁 Between Bianca and Evo, I will choose Evo. If you still go Bianca, it’s a cracking machine. Where do you live?

Please could I get a sanity check on my upgrade thoughts

BrewLiam

Cuprajake

I know, I shouldn’t care about the colour but I do, especially since I’ll use it every day for years

As one of the few that’s used the Duo and the Zero, does the Duo have everything that makes the Zero great, but with bigger flat burrs?

MediumRoastSteam

BrewLiam - it’s a tricky one. If we could only taste things through the internet hey…

One of the reasons why I’m very skeptical of having any other grinder at the moment despite all the flat burr hype. The Niche Zero workflow is so good that I worry I’d be kicking myself if I have anything else. And for me at least, I couldn’t tell the difference between the Duo and the Zero, for espresso at least. I was expecting the Duo to blow me away in comparison…. But for my humble tastebuds… it didn’t. I suppose that’s a good thing, for me at least! 🤣🤣🤣🤣

DavecUK

BrewLiam As one of the few that’s used the Duo and the Zero, does the Duo have everything that makes the Zero great, but with bigger flat burrs?

Essentially…it does and allows a much better exploration of brewed coffee.

Cuprajake

Yeah I don’t blame you, last thing you want to do is spend 2k then kick yourself

The duo is a bigger zero

It has near the same retention, near the same exchange, it’s 4db louder than a zero.

And for me, I prefer the flat profile.

I’d like to try some of the 64mm upgrade burrs as they weren’t around when I had that size burr

BrewLiam

MediumRoastSteam and where I’m coming from I’m sure either will be an improvement. I’ve never tasted any burr style side by side, or even different grinders, so no idea if I’d be able to tell the difference. I’m guessing probably not.

MediumRoastSteam

BrewLiam - to be clear, I did t taste it side by side. I just didn’t hand couldn’t) recall any pronounced difference between the Duo and the Zero. I’m sure that, if they were side by side, I would, but would it be a remarkable, pronounced difference worth the difference in price? Probably not. Again, for espresso at least.

tompoland

BrewLiam got the Varia, DF64, DF83, Niche and others.

My pick for best value, highest quality espresso would be a DF64 with Gorilla Gear burrs (or SSP Espresso HU).

The DF64 is a good grinder.

No, it’s not a precision engineered machine and yes, a couple of inexpensive aftermarket bits are helpful. But if you are OK with bellows and fitting upgraded burrs you’d be hard pressed to get a better in-the-cup result with any grinder at any price, for medium or medium/light espresso.

Bold words I know.

Also, based on comparisons so far (blind tests yet to come) the GG burrs produce espresso as tasty as the SSPs and the former is less expensive.

That said, you have to be OK with a little more faff (bellows) and if you don’t like the looks then that could be a deal breaker too.

Cuprajake

64mm has a load of options

MattH

Though I am sorted on a machine I am currently doing the grinder merry go round !

So far I have considered.. ( and I have no preference for conical/fly buy I do already have 2 conicial hand grinders)

SPTK38G as its cheap - does espresso and is small and neat.

Niche Zero - it’s cheaper and smaller than the Duo - I am a mainly milk drinker with a more standard espresso profile (ie not the flowery stuff). It’s available now (you may find a second hand deal..) and of course any issues its a UK company to deal with.

DF64 I had not really consider but again you can buy it in the Uk now.

Then it moves into the future…

064S - I am backing this currently… though may cancel it shortly - I am in at the cheapest level - so it may only cost about £270ish ?

DF83 V2 - available in June/July from belle barista almost Duo prices

DF64V - same sort of timeline - but already hearing possible issues with it… but again it would be from Bella barista - same price though as the DF83.

Vario VS3 - mid may for the next shipment.. again has to be imported - though its a nice compact unit.

Then when I start stargazing there’s the Zerno Z1 which is lovely though very expensive and you would have to import - and wait til August.

Then there are the luxury handgrinders like the HG2 and Hg1 prime.. but now I am just coffee porn equipment probably more on the look/build than anything else (and really another hand grinder.)

The Duo for me is probably overkill - its bigger and I dont think I would notice a difference between it and the zero ? (And its a July delivery)

I love the size and look of the Olympia Moca SD - but its really expensive and seems to be missing some basic options like sound proofing and numbers on the adjustment dial which should be there for that sort of money.

Lastly there is any one of the Eureka models (I quite like the Libra which dispenses by weight) - they are again quite modestly sized - but it seems a bit hit and miss on how well they work / build quality it seems - though lots of choice on burr size and features.

Then there are the numerous commercial type machines which end up in the home - these I have mostly discounted due to their size / features which may not lend themselves to a single dosing lifestyle - but if you had the space you could get a bargain … (I liked the look of the All grind which is badged under San Remo and Fiorenzato)

But then I have to remind myself what I am actually looking for - which is a just a way to grind the beans consistently and easily for multiple drinks when arms are not in the mood :)

Honestly I think like Hifi (which seems to have the same rabbit holes as coffee) the differences between kit (grinders) is tiny - a lot of it is personal taste, and how you react to it. YouTubers will always highlight (over describe) so that there is something to talk about/compare otherwise alot of videos would become mundane.

For me maybe I am lucky and once I get to a point I am happy and done - its done :)

It does not of course help in the decision making right now.

So I have written loads and I am still non the wiser….

dfk41

Built in bias here, but, from the type of drinks you like of all the grinders you mention. by far the best bang for your buck is the Zero. It has been out there for some considerable length of time, there are very few issues ever arise, it is proven….it has its haters but beware oif people with hidden agendas…..designed in GB versus made and designed in China perhaps

MattH

dfk41 That’s the way I am slowly heading - buy something once and just use it :)

Pompeyexile

dfk41 designed in GB

Portsmouth I believe….Ahem!

BrewLiam

MattH in very much the same boat it seems. I’m really leaning towards the NZ too. Duo looks nice, but for where I am in my ‘coffee journey’ it’s probably overkill. Plus, loads of people have had NZ for years without problem and much enjoyment.

Cuprajake

where are you both based? perhaps theres a member local with the grinders you are looking at?

capuchin

Many of the grinder discussions and debates I’ve read over the past few years [including my own] tend to end in the purchase of an NZ. (This was pre duo mind) - There’s probably good reason for this.

BrewLiam

Thanks for the help again everyone.

I’ve decided to cancel my Timemore 078s. Too many red flags. And instead I’m going to look at getting the Niche Duo.

I prefer to ‘buy once’ if I can rather than an incremental step up. So, this feels like the way to go. Plus, I’ve always wanted a Niche, it was just never the right time.

I’ve emailed them as the White is sold out currently and James has ‘put me on the list’!

Cuprajake

white? were you not getting a black bianca?

BrewLiam

Cuprajake I’m not 100% decided on colour. But I MUCH prefer the white Niche, so going with that regardless.

MattH

Wonder how many they have sold then ? Will be interesting when “real” users get them in July.

I also cancelled my 064s, now i am bouncing between the Zero or even a Fiorenzato all ground as an off the wall choice :). All the while hand grinding away whilst I window shop..

BrewLiam

MattH I watched The Wired Gourmet review the All Ground on YT yesterday. Looks like a great grinder.

Cuprajake

they had like 4million in backing didnt they? so thats a fair few haha

from reading they will have x amount at the start i think it said 3000 somewhere and then work through that, there has been dates of aug/sept given on forums, but we wont know till they start to drop. it did say they would work up the numbers of who baked first

atm over various platforms there seems to be a wide spectrum of opinion on taste, i mean who’d of thought taste was subjective haha

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