Hi all, I am new here and only recently purchased my first decent espresso machine. Dave's review really helped me choose the Elizabeth. Anyway all is well so far, except it seems that the Elizabeth brew temp which is set to 94C, spikes to 100-102C right after I flush the screen a bit for cleaning. I do this between shots (press 1&2 together) in order to flush the leftover coffee from the shower screen. The spike takes ages to settle back to 94C unless I flush more water from the hot water tap, it then drops to 80s and then stables back to 94C. Not a massive issue but then this machine is meant to be pretty temperature stable yet you cannot do back to back shots in the same temperature, unless I either don't flush left over coffee or I go through this long process of manual temperature adjustment. Is this normal or am I doing something wrong? Thanks!

@"erkal"#p46224 It's normal for a small boiler, even with very clever software. You introduce a lot of water rapidly when you flush compared to an espresso shot. If the service (steam boiler) is on this can be mitigated a little and if the flush is large. This influx of water chills the boiler down rapidly, especially in the region of the temperature sensor….this encourages the system to produce more heat than is really required. The water mixes and by the time it shows that high reading…it's too late and then starts the wait for it to cool down. The temperature effect on the espresso shot is much smaller than the swings seen on the display, as the group has a lot of thermal mass. The above explains the reason for the swings in temp. > Is this normal or am I doing something wrong? Yes, you don't need to be flushing the group between shots…just at the end of a series of shots, also the portafilter only needs brushing out with a dry 1 inch paintbrush after knocking it out…only washing it after the end of a series of shots.

@"DavecUK"#p46238 Hi, Thanks for the great information, this is a relief and makes much more sense. In this case the actual temp view seems to be a little misleading and not as useful while pulling shots. Since I have your attention I have another question. The pressure gauge sits between 10-11 while I pull shots. My timing and yield weight are roughly within the 30-35s and 1:2 ratio. I see people make adjustments to the pressure, I’m just wondering if the 10-11 bar reading is sufficient or do I have to make adjustments?

@"erkal"#p46246 - Mine was the same. After a couple of years I bothered to adjust the pressure to the more acceptable parameter of the proximities of 9bar. Get to know your machine and then worry about adjustments. It's a great little capable coffee machine. I had mine for 3 years and I look every now and then for something to replace it with within a reasonable price (below £2k). For my needs and considering its features. so far I've been struggling. If you haven't read this in-depth review and all the other addendums please do so, watch all the videos, and adjust the PID settings as per the ones recommended here: https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/05/08/lelit-elizabeth/

Lelit Elizabeth temperature spike

Inspector

Have you read Dave’s sway document about Lelit Elizabeth?

erkal

Inspector Yes, his review was what made up my mind when I was stuck between Elizabeth and Rancilio Pro. I copied all his settings as well. Bellabarista links his review at the product page, very clever :) Excellent review as well.

erkal

Hi!

That’s good to hear. I really wasn’t looking forward to opening up my week old machine lol.

My shots are still a huge improvement from the previous second hand Sage I had anyway.

MediumRoastSteam

erkal Anyway all is well so far, except it seems that the Elizabeth brew temp which is set to 94C, spikes to 100-102C right after I flush the screen a bit for cleaning

erkal I copied all his settings as well.

Hm…. I don’t remember noticing this with my machine. Are you sure you key’d in all the PID settings correctly?

Could you please do a video just to make sure we are talking about the right thing?

After a shot, and 20s so the shot time disappears from the display, I see the temperature goes down by 3 or 4 degrees, and quickly recover.

How long are you flushing for? I usually flush for 1 or 2 seconds and wipe it clean.

erkal

MediumRoastSteam

Hi,

Yes I can make a video. I use the flush feature by pressing buttons 1&2 together, which is set to 6s flush, I believe, copied from Dave’s settings. The temp display setting also copied from him, shows the actual temp and not the set temp. I’m pretty sure I copied all settings from his review correctly but definitely can double check.

MediumRoastSteam

erkal - OK. I never flushed my machine for 6 seconds before :-) - I never saw the need for it. In any case, I’ll do the same tomorrow and will let you know 👍

MediumRoastSteam

erkal - Well…

erkal I believe, copied from Dave’s settings.

I think you haven’t copied the settings as suggested by @DavecUK :-)

See below, key in the correct values and we go from there :-) (e.g.: KPc should be 0.2, KIc should be 0.07)

https://sway.office.com/S5J4d9Jp4Y9LdVFx

Let me know if that fixes the issue :-)

erkal

MediumRoastSteam

That’s a good point actually :) A couple of seconds of flushing should be enough to wash away the coffee

I will try it that way as well.

MediumRoastSteam

erkal - Flush for a 3 seconds and clean the group when you are done with a wet cloth. Then flush it again for 1 second or so (if you really want to).

If you don’t want to flush much, consider investing in a puck screen or use aeropress filters on top of the puck.

Inspector

Even if i flush for 6 seconds, temperature drops about 6 degrees maximum, and recovers back to 93 fully in about 30 seconds.

MediumRoastSteam

Inspector - I think you are right. I remember the recovery setting are quite aggressive with the factory PID setting, overshooting quite a bit. But not with those suggested by Dave.

erkal

MediumRoastSteam

Well that’s not good for me, I am now noticing temp drop and then spike to 101 even after I just pull a shot. I made the video but I don’t know how to show it on here

erkal

MediumRoastSteam

I’m going to go through the settings one more time

MediumRoastSteam

erkal - put a video on YouTube, unlisted, and paste the link here.

MediumRoastSteam

erkal do you find your steam wand getting hot after steaming some milk

I checked mine today.

Usual steaming lasting approx. 40 seconds. Then I just open the steam wand and let it run steam. I was able to hold the steam wand comfortably at all times. It was warm, but it was not hot. The closer you get to the tip or the top the warmer it gets due to condition from the non-insulated parts.

erkal I am now noticing temp drop and then spike to 101

Checked this to after a 6s flush: as expected, temperature went from 93C (set temp) to 87C, then quickly recovering - about 1 minute - back to 93C.

Make sure your PID parameters are what’s recommended by @DavecUK .

erkal

MediumRoastSteam

bit of an unrelated question but do you find your steam wand getting hot after steaming some milk? today it was almost untouchable from top to tip and I am not sure if that was always the case or is it meant to be cool to touch all the time?

MediumRoastSteam

erkal - 😊

They will get hot after steaming - but you can touch them.

If you ever touched a non-insulated steam wand, I expect you to have scars of 3rd degree burn in your fingers.

The only reason they would heat up is if steam is getting between the inner tube and the wall of the steam wand.
Do a test:

bring machine up to steam temp;
onto a large jug, or bottle or glass, empty (to catch the steam - or don’t bother) open the steam wand for 30 seconds.
can you touch the steam arm? You should be able to.

If you can’t, you most likely has a leak on the top of the steam arm.

Did you manage to contact Bella Barista?

erkal

MediumRoastSteam

Thanks for the test!

So maybe I am being a little dramatic but I am pretty sure there was nearly no heat on the wand after frothing. I just made two drinks back to back and yes the tip is scorching which is normal but the middle elbow bit is also warm and as you get closer to the top nut it gets very very hot again.

erkal

MediumRoastSteam

Yeah I have now noticed that it’s not even due to the flush anymore, it shoots up to 101C right after pulling a shot. I am going to go through the settings again and compare them with Dave’s.

erkal

KPc = 0.2 (PID Proportional value coffee boiler)

KIc = 0.07 (PID Integral value coffee boiler)

These settings on mine are much different to Dave’s. I found another value which was very different (Bs) and set it to Dave’s. It seems to get even hotter now

MediumRoastSteam

erkal -

Can you please list ALL the values here, of all parameters, please? The derivative and band/range values are also important. (e.g.: KDc and Bc), as well as the offset value (EC). And same again for the Steam values, so KPs, KIs, KDs, Bs, Es)

Many thanks.