Hey, long time no talk. Things have changed in the world of coffee forums. I've been happily trucking along with Liz for just over three years now but I have experienced an issue. It's been making a soft bubbling noise for a while but I never worried about it too much as I couldn't really remember if it had always done it or if I was being paranoid (happens a lot with gadgets.) I noticed on Saturday it was literally boiling the water in the water tank by routing hot water or steam back into the tank through the overflow. She's been shut down since and I finally got a minute to take the lid off. Something is wrong with the brew boiler I think. The brown stuff does not seem to be coffee by the smell. She's only ever been run on Ashbeck and thus never descaled. Not sure if that could be the issue? [URL=https://i.imgur.com/xkG7IpN.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/xkG7IpN.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/c9ZPrtH.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/c9ZPrtH.jpg[/IMG][/URL] l

That's corrosion. You have a leak somewhere. With the lid off, turn the machine on and let it get up to temp. See if you can spot what's going on. A video would be great. A photo not so close up would also help.

@"Cuprajake"#p4732 I could make some guesses, but there needs to be clarity both in the photo (which is a little blurred) and in the source of the water, coming back to the tank. * I'd like to see a pulled back shot (showing the entire top internals, in case layout has changed) * the shot should be well focussed * what overflow are you talking about (can you indicate it (overflow is not a technical; term allowing me to identify a component) * do brew temperatures seem normal * are shots normal * has there been any odd behaviour apart from that described * any strange noise should be investigated sooner rather than later (makes the fix easier and cheaper). * **When you say literally boiling the water in the tank (do you mean the tube back to the tank was bubbling, or do you mean the temperature of the water in the tank was close to boiling?** * has the brew pressure been normal, what does the gauge show If I had to guess, based on inadequate information, I may send you down the wrong, and more expensive path. Certainly from the photo it looks like the brew boiler has been possibly overheating and leaking from a fitting, however these are symptoms, as possibly is the tank water getting warm. Oops I forgot to press post wrote this some hours ago.

Sorry I've been crazy busy at work and also agreed to bake an elaborate cake for a charity bake sale that took 2 full evenings after work so I haven't had time to come back to this. In order: There are more pictures attached, I might have been in portrait mode and hence the blur. Overflow was likely a bad choice of words on my part, it's the return line I assume. I have drawn an arrow pointing to it on one of the pictures. Brew temp normal, decides if it wants to do 93 or 94 daily but it picks one and stays there - it's set for 93 Shots are normal Buttons are a pain in the ass but they always were - you push it to stop the shot and hear the click but it keeps going and you have to push it again occasionally but this is not new and both 1 and 2 do it so I assume it's characteristic It was a fainter noise at first, I convinced myself it had always done it. The return tube is bubbling, the tank gets so hot I wouldn't like to touch it bare handed, the return line is discoloured to an opaque white and in operation so hot I wouldn't want to touch it and the tank enclosure has some condense on the walls. It's worse when the water level is lower but the machine also only runs from about 730am to 10am daily and is switched off then until the following morning. The brew pressure has been normal, I believe it runs at around 10 but it's been a while since I paid much attention to the gauge. There is definitely a leak from the brew boiler as I guess we could already guess. The first time I powered it up I was working on the cake across the kitchen. I heard the evaporating water and came back over but by the time I got a look, there was just residual water on the top of the boiler and the source wasn't clear. I believe there is evidence of a leak on the tube that goes into the back of it with a silver fitting though, arrow pointing at the suspect in the marked up picture. I suspect the leak doesn't happen every time as I've turned it on a few times since and watched like a hawk but I'm yet to replicate that behaviour. I've retrieved my Kitchenaid from the garage and am not using the machine daily until the issues are resolved. This is sad as the steam power on the kitchenaid is pants. If it has two issues and the water only leaks on the brew boiler on warming up, I would never have noticed that as the husband turns it on as he gets up first and it's been on for 30 mins by the time I'm in the room with it. He is scared of it in general and won't use it, just turn it on! I have a video, I will try to figure out where to host it and share in a follow up comment. [URL=https://i.imgur.com/zmKrDOd.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/zmKrDOd.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/SATp0Bs.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/SATp0Bs.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/DeSlwSl.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/DeSlwSl.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zEyNHurGH-XfE7W4AuEJDKLfk6SyMK2D/view?usp=sharing

The horrible noise is the dishwasher not the coffee machine, sorry!

@"Tempest"#p47498 - was the steam boiler on? If you lift the return hose out of the tank, is it steam or water dripping through? Does it do the same in eco mode?

> @"Tempest"#p47494 I have a video, I will try to figure out where to host it and share in a follow up comment. Upload video to YouTube as unlisted, then simply paste the link to it hear and it will magically appear. I have added 2 arrows and numbers to the photo below. 1 is the vacuum breaker vent tube and it doesn't lead to the tank, but might be hissing. The tube connected to the metal 4 way connector you indicated with an arrow doesn't look opaque, but can be the only tube making the tank very hot. Water from this tube should be cold as it vents pressure when the pump runs to limit the maximum brew pressure. 2 indicates an elbow fitting which may be leaking, could even be cracked…sometimes these leaks will happen when cold and cease when hot and everything has expanded. [upl-image-preview url=https://i.imgur.com/pyl3Y49.jpeg] You don't mention the limit stat tripping so I'll assume the brew boiler isn't getting too hot…So * There is a leak on the brew boiler - Identify by running up from cold with the top off and observe. Then depending on the leak report back and we can tell you how to fix * It looks like the expansion valve might be leaking - Open (unscrew the end bit after removing the tube) and clean pad by unscrewing end, or replace. Reset pressure using a blind filter and running a shot, set the max pressure to 9 bar by turning the end part of the expansion valve * Are you using good water, low in limescale, what water exactly are you using? It might mean more maintenance is required. There's nothing to be afraid of, but it needs fixing or the problems will get worse and more expensive. At the moment worse case scenario, you are in for around a £30 fix cost in parts. If you need any parts, you might not.

Steam boiler is always on because we only drink lattes and hot chocolates here, we're heathens. To answer other questions I will have to turn it on - should have an easier day tomorrow so will try to remember to do so. The Kitchenaid of sadness will be a firm reminder on at least three occasions.

Issues with Elizabeth

Tempest

It’s definitely opaque down inside the tank.

The machine has made 3-4 espresso shots and 1-2 hot chocolates worth of steamed milk daily on nearly every day I’ve owned it and it’s never failed to do so successfully even while making the noises, nothings ever tripped out, no steam in the gauges ever, button lights are all fine.

It’s only ever seen Ashbeck. If that’s still a good water I should be good. If Ashbeck changed at any point, it’s never been descaled so I guess that could be an issue.

I’ve run it up a few times since the time it did leak with the lid off and it hasn’t leaked again, but clearly some day it will do as it didn’t get that corroded from a leak here and there. I’ll try again in the morning and see what it does. Husband says that this cannot become the third coffee machine in the garage because I bought a new one so I’ll have to get to the bottom of it!

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK The tube connected to the metal 4 way connector you indicated with an arrow doesn’t look opaque, but can be the only tube making the tank very hot. Water from this tube should be cold as it vents pressure when the pump runs to limit the maximum brew pressure.

It should - but unfortunately it isn’t. On that four way connector, one of the hoses goes to the safety valve. In normal operation only water from the expansion valve should go through it. However, that water first floods all the hoses (I.e.: there’s water on all tubes, including the one going to the safety valve). Machine warms up, safety valve gets very hot as it’s connected to the steam boiler, and then you hear some gurgling - that is, essentially, the water in that tube boiling over and being pushed out. If you touch that 4 way connector, it gets incredibly hot.

When the expansion valve operates, the water there gets mixed and in result the water going back to the tank is often lukewarm.

How do I know? Lots of investigation and monitoring with the machine open over weeks, a few months from new. I ultimately resorted to removing that 4 way connector and doing some re-routing. I hate that part of the machine. The design is incredibly poor, specially one of the ports of the 4 way connector being plugged by a hose going to the back of the steam wand tap. Why it isn’t at least a 3 way connector is beyond me.

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam Wasn’t aware the steam boiler was always on…thought they might have turned it off to quickly eliminate one source of problems.

Tempest

It’s definitely opaque. There is definitely steam coming out of the return tube into the tank.

No leak from the elbow fitting again today but I would make a guess it’s the source of the leak. It is crusted in white stuff where as the other fittings only seem to have residue around them at the base.

Noticed this morning steam comes out of the opv (I think) into the drip tray until it gets to a certain temp and it stopped, not sure if it always did that or not. Also, this reminded me that over the last few weeks I have had to scrape the puck off the shower screen more often than ever. It’s always stuck occasionally but now it’s more often than not. I drink a different coffee every bag via dog and hat so it can’t be a coffee bean issue really.

It’s in eco mode now but since it had already gotten up to 125C it was still bubbling and 118C last I checked. Will check again.

Tempest

We’re down to 107C, noises have stopped, tubes have stopped having water jump around in them and the return tube is now cool to the touch where as I could barely hold it in the above picture.

MediumRoastSteam

Tempest

You need to eliminate what’s causing it. There’s no staining on the steam boiler, or around that area, so it’s likely the issue you have is related to the brew boiler.

When you say the hose is hot to touch - is that when you pull a shot or is steaming coming out of that hose while the machine warms up? Does it happen when the machine idles?

Does it happen when the machine is in eco mode?

Tempest

MediumRoastSteam

Always happens when steam boiler is on from warm up through all idling. Stops entirely when steam boiler off.

MediumRoastSteam

Tempest - OK. So the hot water going into the tank is most likely related to what I described in my early post. It might also be related to the safety valve leaking, which would explain if you see this behaviour happening when idling.

That’s one of your problems, which in my opinion is unrelated to what’s causing the issue in the brew boiler.

To check if you have a problem with the safety valve:

With the machine cold, disconnect that 4way connector completely;
wiggle the tubes about so any sitting water in them is removed;
Try to position the hose coming out of the safety valve to somewhere away from electronics, or somewhere you can catch it;
Turn the machine on and let it come up to temp;
If water or steam comes out of the safety valve hose, then you know you have a problem there. Otherwise, nothing to worry about in that area.
Let machine cool down and re-connect the 4way connector. Remember to use cable ties when you do that as (based on experience!) those hoses will pop out if you don’t.

As for what’s causing the issues in your brew boiler, as per Dave’s comments, there’s most likely a lose fitting somewhere.

Tempest

Hello again!

I have finally braced myself enough to take this apart, first time I tried none of the hoses wanted to come off and I didn’t have it in me to fight with it. I have taken the expansion valve off. I have it soaking in some vinegar water but I’ve attached pictures of how it looked when it came apart. Can this be saved or does it need a new one?

The leak on the brew boiler is from the hose on the right hand side that goes down to the hot water tap. Can that be changed independently? If so can someone point me to the site I can use to buy parts for this machine? In getting a good look at it today, I can see where the metal elbow that goes into the boiler is cracked. Hopefully that’s available independently of the brew boiler.

Which is the safety valve? That four way seems to run to the tank, the steam valve, the steam boiler and the expansion valve?

I guess I won’t know if the issue is the expansion valve or not until it seems clean enough to put back in and run the machine up to temp. Any ideas based on this new info appreciated, and also if there is a link to a reputable place to buy parts I’d be grateful, I didn’t save the box or I’d be tempted to just ship it back to Bella Barista and let them sort it sigh.

Kindest Regards

Tempest

Further to this, I put the expansion valve back in, took the hoses off the 4 way connector and once the steam boiler was up to temperature, steam started coming out of the hose attached to what I assume is the safety valve, marked up on the picture.

That connector I blamed isn’t cracked I don’t think but it is leaking out the back and I fully believe is the source of my brew leak - I think I have found that connector online, but I have no idea if I’m right or if so, how you can replace it so any guidance on this appreciated.

I guess I need to know then does this mean the valve is faulty and is just letting steam come out constantly? I assume the boiler wouldn’t have been able to over pressure in the first 1 minute of operation but I guess I’m just curious how to know if it’s a faulty valve or if it’s supposed to vent pressure if there’s too much and that’s what it’s doing?

Hopefully it’s alright to tag both you extremely knowledgeable folks in the hope you can further assist @DavecUK @MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK

Tempest That connector I blamed isn’t cracked I don’t think but it is leaking out the back and I fully believe is the source of my brew leak - I think I have found that connector online, but I have no idea if I’m right or if so, how you can replace it so any guidance on this appreciated.

it looks cracked, if it is, be very careful, if it breaks off, when you put a well fitting spanner on the flats, wou have a real problem. They are Nickel plated brass not steel! I would ask for a new elbow.. If it is cracked, after removal, clean the thread up and use PTFE tape…7-10 turns to fit a replacement.

If the safety valve marked is leaking, it should be replaced

The expansion valve is probably fine with a good clean up and lubrication with food safe silicon grease like Dow corning Molykote 111. The one bit you don’t show (and the main bit I want to see…is the Viton seat on the valve (the small disk with the green bit)!

Tempest

DavecUK The green disk part was in good condition, just shows an indent from where it sits against the flange at the boiler end. The whole thing cleaned up well in some vinegar water from the light scale that was on it. I will order some of the grease you mention.

The steam safety valve is the source of the steam going into the water tank. As soon as everything made the noises indicating the steam boiler had ‘sealed’ at pressure, steam started to come out the hose attached to it when it was removed from the four way connector - does this mean it’s leaking and is safe to just replace with no further diagnosis to make sure the boiler isn’t building too much pressure?

How do you get the plastic hose out of the elbow per the brew boiler? I can see no way to get the elbow off while the hose is connected as it won’t have enough stretch and flex to let the elbow turn. I have no idea how the hose comes out of the elbow, we had a look this evening but couldn’t figure it out between the husband and I.

Any idea of a best place to buy the parts? Bella Barista has everything labelled Mara X or Bianca they really don’t have much for Elizabeth available. Same with coffee spares direct, all for PL62 and I understand mine to be a PL92?

DavecUK

Tempest How do you get the plastic hose out of the elbow per the brew boiler? I can see no way to get the elbow off while the hose is connected as it won’t have enough stretch and flex to let the elbow turn. I have no idea how the hose comes out of the elbow, we had a look this evening but couldn’t figure it out between the husband and I.

It’s a John Guest style fitting, push the ring back and the hose can easily be pulled out.

Tempest

I think I have all the parts found for this - hoping as some of them looked a bit different in pictures but seemed to come up when searching for the right part numbers. I figured out the removal of the tube from the elbow by finally putting the right search terms to find a youtube video of someone removing the boiler and I was able to break the elbow loose so that’s good as it doesn’t seem likely to break off in the boiler. It won’t clear the sensor in the middle of the boiler though, so I’ll further have to remove the three middle sensors in order to get clearance to back the elbow off and fit the new one, which is a further worry but I guess we’ll see how it goes once the parts are here next week.

Tempest

DavecUK

The elbow has come and is the exact match bar the colour so that’s fine

The valve I’ve been sent is different - much longer and the nipple for the hose is different. However, the new valve does have an output of the same size, it just doesn’t have the same grips on it and is slightly longer overall. Both say 5.5 Bar and seem to have the same manufacturer
though. I’m guessing it’s safe to fit the new one as it’s just a revision of the same part?

What do I do with the grease? Is it just to add to the sides of the expansion valve where the green pad travels?

MediumRoastSteam

if it fits, it should be fine. Just for precaution, tie the hose to the nipple of the valve with a cable tie, just it case the hose becomes undone.

Tempest

MediumRoastSteam It fits, I will cable tie but I need to get some. Ran it up to test it all and the new elbow leaks out the back worse than the old one… It was too hot to remove it then, I’ll try reinserting it if the hose looks in good condition, otherwise I guess I’ll try some ptfe tape around it.

MediumRoastSteam

Tempest PTFE is required. Of course they use threadlocker in the factory, but for us, PTFE is sufficient.

Just check Lelit Insider on youtube and there are plenty of videos there showing how to do that.

DavecUK

Tempest I’ll try reinserting it if the hose looks in good condition, otherwise I guess I’ll try some ptfe tape around it.

You have to use PTFE after cleaning off, as much of the old threadlocker as you can. If you don’t and just screw the elbow into the old threadlocker, it will always leak.

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