Ready for side by side blind testing this weekend. Ignore the Duo, it's not a part of this test. Two kettles, two Switches on two scales and two Ode grinders, Gen 1 and Gen 2. Two cups upside down on the Lazy Susan (apologies to any Susans reading this) marked unsurprisingly "One" and "Two". I'll let you know how it goes. [URL=https://i.imgur.com/rKPC7hC.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/rKPC7hC.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Have a dustpan/brush ready for the Gen 1😅 Interested to hear your thoughts. I didn’t have a Gen 1 long enough to find out how good it was because of how messy it was. Had a Gen 2 since launch and absolutely love it.

@"HarveyMushman"#p56768 thanks for the heads up. It's seems to be ok. I've just put 1kg through it. It's actually many happy returns for the Gen 1. Had one of the very first ones but never used it to any serious extent so sold it. I'd forgotten about the spray so now I'm wondering if they changed something in later iterations of the Gen 1. I've had the Gen 2 for a month or so and after viewing some comparisons between the two I got curious about the out-of - favour Gen 1 burrs. As luck would have it a local wholesaler was selling this one for 35% off. I can do the taste test / comparison and then sell it without taking a hit. But if I don't like the Gen 1 burrs I might just pop the SSPs in and see how they go against the Gen 2. The Gen 1 makes its return courtesy of a Black Friday sale.

@"tompoland"#121 How long did it take you to get both grinders dialled in? The Gen 1 is a little messy, removing the cover for the catch cup helps, I dose grind, check ground coffee weight, then do the knocking to clear & discard chaff etc. It's not clear to me why I want that in my dose?

Doing a quick RDT with the gen 1 made it tidier than the Niche Zero for me. But gen 2 is still a big upgrade for cleanliness and I can understand why other grinder manufacturers are rushing to add Ionisers to their machines. Also interested to hear your thoughts on dialing them in and with what beans since I struggled with lighter beans and smaller doses with the version 1.1 burrs on the original ode. Had it on one notch off chirp for most pour overs and even then it felt like it was often missing a little something unless I was making larger batches. You'll be able to get a lot more out of them with the gen 2s for sure as it goes a lot finer. One suggestion would be to not let the gen 1's burr limitations prevent you from going finer on the 2s, as if you just go for equivalent grind coarseness you might be missing out on what the 2s have to offer. Good luck and I'm looking forward to reading about your results!

> @"FadedFrontiers"#p56785 Also interested to hear your thoughts on dialing them in and with what beans since I struggled with lighter beans and smaller doses with the version 1.1 burrs on the original ode. Had it on one notch off chirp for most pour overs and even then it felt like it was often missing a little something unless I was making larger batches. My extractions and preference scores have been ball-park (relative to all the other grinders I have) with the Ode V1.1 all the way up to 5.33 for V60 and 210g of brew water. Never tried the V1.0 but if it only grinds 100um coarser (figs supplied by Fellow), I can't help but be a little skeptical of claims the V1.0 doesn't grind fine enough for 1 cup V60, which can usually be brewed with about the coarsest settings I ever use. Currently at setting 3.33 for 5min steeps and 215g brew water with Switch. The grinder showed first signs of chirp r 2.00 when new, but now only chirps at 1.00 (finest setting possible).

@"MWJB"#p56789 what beans have you tried with the 1.1 burrs for single cup v60s? 5.1 is extremely coarse for a single cup brew from my experience on the 1.1, practically french press settings.

@"FadedFrontiers"#p56799 I'd normally brew French press at a similar setting to the finer side of V60 for large presses, quite a bit finer for smaller & single wall glass presses (I can understand the V1.0 might not be able to achieve this fine a grind). I don't agree with the recent notion that French press grinds should be coarse. I don't agree with Fellow's guide on the grinder hopper lid, but they indicate that 6.00 is the start of French press range. All light filter roasts: Ode V1.1, 5.33, 35g poured every 40s via Drip Assist - Kiss the Hippo Kenya Muchagara AA washed wet fermentation SL 28, SL34, Ruiru 11. Setting 5.00 & 5.33, 30g every 30s for both V60 and Kalita Wave 185 with Drip Assist. Kenya Barn Giakanja Washed SL28 & SL34 Setting 4.66 & 5.00 Kalita Wave 185 & Clever Dripper with Drip Assist - Blossom, Colombia La Reforma washed pink Bourbon No cups fell below 19.5%EY, ranged up to 21%EY. All on par with scores from Feldgrind, Niche & Lido grinders with both Etzinger burrs and Kinu Brew burrs.

> @"MWJB"#p56801 I’d normally brew French press at a similar setting to the finer side of V60 for large presses, quite a bit finer for smaller & single wall glass presses (I can understand the V1.0 might not be able to achieve this fine a grind). I don’t agree with the recent notion that French press grinds should be coarse. > > I don’t agree with Fellow’s guide on the grinder hopper lid, but they indicate that 6.00 is the start of French press range. > > All light filter roasts: > > Ode V1.1, 5.33, 35g poured every 40s via Drip Assist - Kiss the Hippo Kenya Muchagara AA washed wet fermentation SL 28, SL34, Ruiru 11. > > Setting 5.00 & 5.33, 30g every 30s for both V60 and Kalita Wave 185 with Drip Assist. Kenya Barn Giakanja Washed SL28 & SL34 > > Setting 4.66 & 5.00 Kalita Wave 185 & Clever Dripper with Drip Assist - Blossom, Colombia La Reforma washed pink Bourbon > > No cups fell below 19.5%EY, ranged up to 21%EY. All on par with scores from Feldgrind, Niche & Lido grinders with both Etzinger burrs and Kinu Brew burrs. On the rare occasions I do french press I also brew it finer but used it in the general sense - to mean coarser than standard v60. Also agree the grind guide was never useful. Your 5.33 setting is nearer the 4-5 mark for most other users if you chirp was at 1-2, so not quite as extreme as at first glance. Although I'm not sure how it drifted quite so much or if that's normal. Either way I'm glad it works for your tastes and methods. Given gen 1 peaks at around [650um](https://fellowproducts.com/blogs/learn/preliminary-performance-of-ode-brew-grinder) at the finest setting and 1.1 around 550um, the question is not whether it can *possibly* brew some light roasts but whether it affords the flexibility many light roast drinkers enjoy to go finer. It didn't for many users including myself which is the reasoning behind gen 2s, which were an upgrade in that regard.

@"FadedFrontiers"#p56806 700um average size is perfectly useable for 1 cup V60, This is about the finest setting I use. Pour over grind is usually around 800um average. Whilst taste preference is subjective, it doesn't just work for me - it tangibly works in an objective sense and is comparable to other grinders in that respect. If the Ode V1.0's peak (the mode) shown on a laser particle analysis is around 650um, the median grind size is definitely lower than that. Grinding substantially finer than 700um average (half the mass, not mode) doesn't seem to offer any benefits as far as I can tell (note that some influencers criticise the Niche Zero for not grinding coarse enough, though they have the scope to do so) . Not to say that the option to grind finer than 650um might not be welcome (I would welcome it, even if primarily for other methods).

@"MWJB"#p56781 I already had the G2 dialled in and so set the G1 to the same on the dial and the amount in the two decanters was near identical which was a happy surprise. The G1 doesn't spray nearly as much as I remembered but I did use a very light RDT. I do t use the lid on that catch cup on either Ode. I did three practice grinds with both Odes to compare static and the G1 had a modest amount of grinds clinging to the grinder around the exit chute. A few flicks of the whacker thingy dislodged them to the point where both grinders were pretty much identical in terms of "clingons".

Ode Gen 1 vs Ode Gen 2

tompoland

FadedFrontiers Also interested to hear your thoughts on dialing them in and with what beans since I struggled with lighter beans

I’m dialling finer than for typical V60. I’m on 3.0 on both grinders and using a specialist roasters light roast, roasted for filter and measuring 132 on a Tonino color analyzer. So seems to ok in terms of range. By anyone’s measure they are light roasted.

The lack of static and the range still available for lighter roasts makes me wonder if the later interations of the G1 incorporates some tweaks.

FadedFrontiers

tompoland I’m on 3.0 on both grinders

As mentioned the gen 2 is 300 microns finer than the v1.1 at the finest setting (one click off chrip 250um versus 550um), so something to bear in mind.

tompoland

First pour this morning. Simultaneous grind. Pour sequence (convoluted - using Ketsu Switch recipe) with each step for the G2 being 30 seconds behind the corresponding step of the G1.

Same quantity in (280g) and out (_210g).

Onto the Lazy Susan, close eyes, spin the tray around and back again. Taste notes made then looked underneath at the bottom of each cup to see which notes belong to which grinder.

The clear winner was the G1 burr. Just my preference of course. Not saying it was better as such, just saying I preferred the coffee from the G1. A bit of a surprise though. Brighter flavors, sweeter. The G2 was clearer but flatter in flavor. I have no doubt that there are plenty of people who would prefer the G2.

Only one pour and I don’t think I got the timing identical and that variable seems capable of changing a lot.

So I’m not rushing to any conclusions yet. More practice, more blind taste comparisons to come.

The beans…

tompoland

Using the Compass thermometer thingy in the foreground to confirm that the temperatures are the same for each sample.

tompoland

Ah ha … turns out that my Ode Gen 1 is actually an Ode 1.1 with a different burr set and some “fixes”. That may explain the decease in static from the earlier Ode I had a couple of years back. This may also explain why I seem to have more to play with at the finer end of the dial.

This from a HB post quoting www.espressogear.com :

UPGRADED V1.1

After release of the ode grinder during fall of 2020, a new release is now in stock. Some fixes and a better burr set is now standard. This allows the grinder to grind 100 microns finer and with better consistency.

MWJB

tompoland If the 2 grinders have different burrs, then it may be the case that the effective grind size differs at the same setting shown on the dial.

It might make more sense to dial in the V1.1 to its best possible cup and ignore the setting shown (unless you have other ways to objectively check grind size output and/or its effect).

Currently, it seems a bit of a leap to put any differences down to the burrs themselves, rather than noise generated by difference in burr gap, or grind size.

210g of beverage seems rather little for an input of 280g and a 20g dose. That’s 3.5 times the dose weight lost in brew water, I only see about 2.4 times the dose weight in water loss for a 5min Switch steep at 3.00 or 3.33 on my Ode V1.1. So it’s hard to see where your lost 20g of beverage is going?

tompoland

MWJB excellent point thank you.

I have the Kruve set (thanks to you and others here) so will play with that.

The other indication of grind size may be that, assuming the same protocol/duration is followed for each pour, the volume of coffee that ends up in the cup. You can see from this morning’s pour that was pretty close to each other. (Ignore the the minutes and seconds on the left-hand side of each scale; the total pour time was three minutes, the extra seconds are the clock continuing to tick as I took the decanters off and poured the coffee into the cups.)

I’m guessing that if the same volume of water at the same temperature goes through each set of coffee grinds at the same rate and duration, and the weight in the cup is similar, then that would be a fair indication that the grind size is similar.

What are your thoughts on using the volume in the cup as an indicator of relative grind size?

Still learning and very much appreciate suggestions such as yours so thank you.

Boy, coffee always gets so complicated the moment you try to reach a well founded conclusion.

MWJB

tompoland What are your thoughts on using the volume in the cup as an indicator of relative grind size?

I don’t see this working I’m afraid. Ideally you want all the liquid that will drain from the bed to end up in the cup at brew end. For two similar grinders the volume in the cup will vary only a little at the extremes of grind and won’t be a reliable indicator of grind size. At the same grind size, with the same grinder and different coffees you will even see small changes.

tompoland

Just a quick post to say how much I appreciate this community and the feedback and guidance as I stumble my way through this comparison and other little projects. I very much appreciate the ego-free contributions.

tompoland

FWIW the result of this morning’s comparison was very similar to yesterday’s. Score after two rounds

Gen 1.1 = 2

Gen 2.0 = 0

I think it’s fair to say that I simply may not have found the sweet spot (pun intended) for the gen 2 burrs.

There are so many variables at play and the results might change with the different beam and a different roast.

tompoland

MWJB I don’t see this working I’m afraid. Ideally you want all the liquid that will drain from the bed to end up in the cup at brew end.

Both are doing that. I’m using a Tetsu Switch recipe which suggests adjusting the grind until the water is all but drained at the 3 min mark.

But thank you because I wasn’t aware that two different grind sizes would potentially result in the same/similar volume in the cup, assuming the same duration of expose to the water.

Just to confirm though, you’re saying that the best way to determine that the grind sizes are similar/same, is to run them through the Kruve?

MWJB

tompoland Both are doing that. I’m using a Tetsu Switch recipe which suggests adjusting the grind until the water is all but drained at the 3 min mark.

OK, but previously you were getting 210g in the cup, it looks like you got 199 & 200g in the cups on the last brew - the coffee cannot be holding back 80g of liquid.

Always look at total brew time as an average value with say +/-20s tolerance (the more liquid in the brewer when you draw down/stop pouring the bigger the variation). I saw that Tetsu lifted the brewer, before the last liquid drained, in his video, I think he did this because his grind size guess (20 Comandante) turned out finer than he was expecting. But, the big extraction driver is based on what you get in the cup - say the last immersed pulse exits the brewer at 1.3%TDS (just a guess), you are 0.4g short of coffee in the cup, that could be a variation of 2%EY from one pair of brews to the next. This much difference is totally wild in terms of brew consistency (+/-0.4%EY over 10 brews of the same coffee would be more typical), and will result in significantly different cups from the same beans.

Yes, the Kruve will help you sense check the grind size. +/-1% in mass passing through the 400/500 sieve can be considered the same. But balance this with whether you feel there is a noticeable, generic malfunction that persists in the cups from one of the grinders & see if you can correct that prior to further comparisons.

tompoland

MWJB this sounds like great information thank you and it looks like I’m simply grinding too fine.

I’ll open up the grind and when I think I’ve got it right I’ll put it through the groove and let you know what that says.

Can you give me a rough idea of how much water the grinds are likely to be retaining?

I’m putting 280 ml in and typically getting 210 out. It sounds like when I get the grind size right I should be getting a lot more than that out.

MWJB

tompoland At around 3.33 on the V1.1 I’m getting around 2.2 to 2.7 times the dose weight absorbed, so I’d expect for 280g of water in, 20g dose should give you 226g to 236g out?

I always wait until dry bed, then another 30s or so to make sure I have as much as you can reasonably expect in the cup/server.

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