Which Dual Boiler

Goodfella

Hi,

My Niche arrived yesterday a little earlier than anticipated so I need to make a decision on which machine to pair with it. I am coming from a Sage Oracle but have decided that I would like the machine with dual boilers and a rotary pump.

The question is which machine? The Lelit Bianca is the stand out when looking at reviews and value for money but from my experience of other hobbies sometimes this value for money isn’t always great. The Bianca may be the exception and really is just a great value proposition. The other machines I have considered are:

Profitect Pro 700

ECM Synchronika

Rocket Cinquantotto

I had never considered any kind of profiling before reading about the Bianca and I am still unsure if I will use it that regularly. So will any of the machines above have any positive or negatives versus the Bianca?

Are there any others I should consider such as the Linea Mini?

Cheers

Ross

LMSC

Goodfella

Please advise us the following :

Is there a problem with your Oracle? What’s not working ? How long have you had it? How many cups do you pull and how many of them are milk-based please?

As an upgrade, as an end-game machine, I would rather buy Bianca or Vesuvius (this is directly) from @Paolo_Cortese of ACS. It probably costs about £150 more than Bianca. You can email Paolo at p.cortese@elcor.it and ask.

@Cuprajake has had many machines, ended up with Bianca and he is super happy.

Last but not the last, please do not forget your water.

Thx

dfk41

Morning, a few years ago, I had the P700. I found it very ‘German’! |It was efficient but had absolutely no soul. Please forget Rocket. Others may expand but in my view they have not really kept up with the times. Again, I had one several years ago. When it came out of the box the water arm fell off!
As more folks see your post then suggestions will come in, but the one you mention yet seem to discount, the Bianca is very good!

SiblingChris

I’ve gone from a Sage Dual Boiler this last year to Lelit Bianca and definitely see that now as my end game machine. I wondered whether I’d really make use of the flow control and therefore profiling element and perhaps I am not as a*n*a*l about it as some taking note of what I am doing with different coffees and so you might argue I am still not making most of it, but I think of that as room for growth if I want to go there.

it’s been trial and error but it’s not complicated at all and a joy to use, actually way less faff and more control than I’ve had before. Ok you can go to more complex and expensive machines with digital and programmable profiling, but for me the focus is the end result without, as I said, the faff and to me at least all the programmable element is the faff even though I know I’d be quite capable of dealing with it if I could be bothered!

So I guess budget is key but then really your own personal preference as to approach in coffee making and tastes. None of those machines are bad choices I’d say.

I’d suggest though you go take a look at Dave’s review of the Bianca and his videos. https://news.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-bianca/

Goodfella

SiblingChris thanks for the reply, I am very much in your camp re: faff and many a time I have bought items with all the bells and whistles but only every used it in its simplest form.

That’s kinda what intrigues me about the Linea Mini, no bells and whistles but assumed quality due to its price. It could just all be style over substance though?

I do want this to be my “end game” machine though.

Ross

Goodfella

Thanks for the replies guys.

I sold the Oracle, it was working fine and made good coffee at times but was inconsistent and I had to stick with darker roasts for it to work well. I had to use the warranty a couple of times which made me nervous about the machine going forward also.

Interesting that you say the Profitec felt very German as I tend to go down the efficient but boring line of German engineering when making purchases.

Not many have good things to say about Rocket. Maybe my hesitation on the Bianca is around looks, I may have to find somewhere with them and have a good look for myself.

Ross

Cuprajake

lm trade on their name and for nearly 4k you’re not getting value for money imo

dfk41

What does the LMLM actually offer over and above the machines you are considering? They have brand reputation, but that only appeals to certain folks. Ask yourself this. If someone presented you with 5 of your favourite drinks, made on 5 well known machines, would you be able to pick out the LMLM? If not, why not? The obvious answer of course is no, so why pay more for something that delivers less or the same?
Does owning a Mercedes A class really make you feel like a real Merc owner?

Cuprajake

You can mod a lmlm but thats abother 1500 onto so im led to belive

Goodfella

The LMLM offers no more in on paper spec, if anything less, I suppose I was wondering is it the price it is because it’s built like a tank or it’s components are of a higher quality. It feels like that’s not the case and it is trading on its looks.

Currently when friends or family come round I end up making 4 or 5 milk drinks back to back which happens most weeks the rest of the time is would be 2, twice a day. Do any of the machine I mentioned have better steaming performance than the others?

Also I have just assumed I will get the machine from Bella Barista, should I be checking anyone else out?

Ross

LMSC

Mate, you are probably over thinking here; understandable, though! 😊

If it is Bianca - Bella Barrista!

If Vesuvius - Direct from Paolo of ACS

You can’t go wrong with either of these. Both are excellent machines, as we advised you before.

If you feed the machine with good water that won’t scale or significantly reduce the risk, and give the TLC she deserves, she will serve you very well for a long long time.

I am sorry as I am not sure if you mentioned anything about your water situation. We can’t emphasis more than enough than by simply advising you to sort this before getting a new machine.

Goodfella

LMSC yeah I am 100% overthinking it, it’s a big investment and you just want to get it right, probably one of those purchases where seeing the machine and having a go would help a lot. Shame BB is closed for visiting atm.

In terms of water I will be filling the internal tank. I live in a soft water area but assumed I wouldn’t be using it straight from the tap.

Ross

hornbyben

While the LMLM is a gorgeous looking machine, and I have no doubt has very good quality parts, I do think it’s incredibly expensive for the feature set.

Sprometheus recently did a video that included the running costs of the LMLM and it was a lot:

If I was looking to spend that sort of money I think I’d go for a Decent. Much more option to play with pressures, flow, temperature etc.

LMSC

Goodfella You should do what you think is good for you. You want to be happy and don’t want the buyers’ remorse.

Re-water, never assume. Get a drop kit from Amazon. Measure the hardness and alkalinity on 20 ml water each and standardise for 5 ml. There is Rob’s excel on this thread. Please get that and also read the water threads.

Most of us feed either re-mineralised (bicarb) RO or distilled.

GL!

John_Yossarian

I would say LMLM doesn’t have anything in particular, bar the badge, that makes it an outstanding machine. It is a very good machine, do not get me wrong but as others have already pointed it out, bad value for the money.
If you look at Rocket you should aim a bit higher, R9 One. But if this attracts you then you have two great competitors to it at almost half the price, Bianca and Vesuvius. Both full of quality parts and immense potential for producing great coffee shots.
You have never mentioned the grinder side, but I assume that aiming that high machine-wise you have this sorted out.

Good luck with your decision and eventual purchase. The most important thing is for you to be happy with whatever you go for in the end.
EDIT: I have just seen that you have got a Niche so the grinder is sorted out.

Cuprajake

A decent would be no good for steaming

Ive personally steamed 450mls of milk with my bianca for hot chocolate and it did that in about 40seconds.

I favour the bianca because i own one. But its a machine i settled on after going through 5 others.

For your needs dual boiler is a must.

hornbyben

Cuprajake A decent would be no good for steaming

Why?

I know it’s a bit slower than some, and doesn’t work in parallel, but it can produce it almost instantly, so from a workflow perspective you can churn out drinks pretty quickly. This is for home use after all.

Cuprajake

Because it takes nearly a minute to steam milk for one drink

Its just slow and if the op is going to be making 5 to 6 milk drinks one after the other its just a faff.
That vid shows the new wand, iirc that comes ln 4k machine now.

hornbyben

Thanks for clarifying your reasoning @Cuprajake.

I’m not sure a decent is on the list, but at least 250ml of milk in 60s will help people assess whether this is ok or not for their situation. I tend to do flat whites [130ml], so two drinks worth of milk in 60s, especially with the auto feature so that you can be prepping the next shots, would be fine. That’s the beauty of this hobby though, plenty of options for everyone’s use cases.

John_Yossarian

Decent would be like buying the latest gaming PC, you know in 6-12 months time you would need another upgrade, new CPU, new generation GPU, faster memory, SSD, etc.
Buying something that has relatively (to HX machines) new technologies in it, e.g. PID, double boiler, ability to program start up, etc. is more modest technology-wise but bullet proof and is going to last.

Beverast

John_Yossarian Don’t know if I fully agree with the PC analogy - my PC is over 2 years old and can still comfortably play the latest games at 2560×1440 60FPS, mostly on the highest quality settings and 4k with a mix of settings. I doubt I will need to upgrade anytime soon…for at least another year or 2.