Hey team! I hope you all had super Christmases and are all still semi-comatose from too much Christmas pudding and charades. The Duo is a grinder that really interests me, and I have nearly bought one on two separate occasions. The reason for not having pushed the button yet is due to some of the comments on a different forum based a little further away from home. Several users have complained of shaking grinders, burr wobble or misalignment, and have started an opinion that a 64mm burr would be a ‘better’ choice. How they know what is better for me in anyone’s guess, but it does give me pause for thought. From reading through almost 80 pages of comments on two separate threads, it seems to me as though most actual users of a Duo are very happy. There is a small minority of Niche users so have decided for reasons usually related to quality control that the unit isn’t for them. Lastly there are a fairly suitable number of users who seem to have simply taken umbrage with the simple fact the Duo exists at all. The first and second sets of users, those who like and dislike the product having used it, I can understand and appreciate hearing from. The last group though, I’m surprised at. I appreciate that the internet is full of self-proclaimed ‘experts’ hiding behind a veil of anonymity, most of which will never have even handled the product let alone used it, but this seems different to me. I couldn’t help but feel there was some form of negative bias against the Niche Duo on reading over the threads, but am not sure if this was a misconception due to the alarming quantity of mine pies I’ve put away over the past week, or if anyone else has felt this too? I’d be very interested to hear your thoughts on the matter, and if it is happening to a greater extent than other products, why this may be the case.

I've only used it for filter. Negatives: - No locking mechanism to hold shaft in place while tightening screw. - 83mm burrs are more expensive than 64mm. - Extra burr carriers are not purchaseable. ( This makes swapping burrs no different than other machines. With extra burr carriers it would be super simple.) - Burr carriers were not designed to work with non-mazzer 83 burrs. Some shimming may be required. Really, all the negatives that I see could be solved with aftermarket burr carriers (currently none available).

For me the Duo is the best grinder that I've had on my bench, and I've had 30 plus over the last three years. I agree with @"Loonster"#637 that it's a missed opportunity for us consumers when we can't buy extra burr carriers. Even those who bought a Duo with just the one burr set can't buy a second burr carrier. Having played with a lot of different burr sets in the Duo, I understand better why Niche do not want to encourage burr swapping but I certainly wish they'd relent and sell the burr carriers on their own.

I left two forums over the duo. On home barista there is a guy called malling who is a burr expert by all accounts. He was telling me and others what the duo was before he had one, he was very vocal. But still bought one and still has it. I think On the discord forum there were two other users, one was moaning about wobble and that the grinder wasn't balanced. He got into a massive argument with me, he was offered a full refund. He kept the duo and said it was better than his brand new kafatec, the other user still has his duo after he shimmed it. Is it a perfect grinder no, is it easy to use and reliable yes. I've had two with no issues, it's set and forget for me, I think the lack of hype this time round is simply because those who had the zero got a duo and it's just like an iPhone upgrade, near identical experience but better, so it feels very familiar to the point people just use them.

> @"JammyDodger"#p58642 I’d be very interested to hear your thoughts on the matter I have both the Niche Zero and the Duo, although I call mine Uno as I don’t drink filter coffee - so the whole concept swapping burrs for me is a moot point. Despite having owned conical and flat burr grinders in the past, for years I kept reading that flat burrs are better than conicals and vice versa. So, when the Uno launched (read: Niche started selling the grinders with only one burr set) I went ahead and bought one. Hen you may ask - why? Why didn’t I buy a df64, or a Lagon P64, or a Monolith? Simple: for the last two, price. It’s just a little bit more than what I would want to pay for a coffee grinder I used twice daily. For the df64, I read good and not so good things about it, and, at least at the time, the only option was to modify the grinder so it works well. So, for me, the Uno was the right grinder as I wasn’t interested in swapping burrs (SSP this, SSP that, bla bla bla). I just wanted to grind coffee with a flat burr grinder without having to puff air through the chamber (bellows), removing chute screens, “hot starting” etc, etc. I wanted to put coffee beans in, turn he grinder on and grind away. For me, the Duo gives me exactly that, and I knew that, unlike other grinders, it’s been tested for a couple of years before being rolled out from the production line. So yeah… boring. But it works, and it works well, for me at least. 😊👍 Have I had problems? Not yet. Could I potentially save myself half of the cost and have the same result in the cup with another flat burr grinder, 64mm or anything else? Probably.

I've been on the home coffee journey for 10 years or so, and I've been resolutely a hand grinder user until this year. The reason is that I have an obsession with things that "just work", and especially with a human connection. I use razors which are over a hundred years old, and clockwork cameras. My espresso machines have all been levers (currently the Cafelat Robot, but previously Cremina, Caravel and Ponte Vecchio). In that context, the Duo is my first electric grinder, and quite an unusual purchase for me. I'm the sort of person who gets niggled by electric devices generally. And I am slightly niggled, but only by the centre screw that occasionally comes loose and needs a tighten. Niche didn't seem particularly interested in resolving that. Other than that, the Duo has been easily the best grinder I've ever owned, beating the HG One, Roscoe, Comandante, Mazzer and 1zpresso hand grinders by a country mile. It is also the first FLAT grinder I've ever owned, so I suppose it's possible I just like flat burrs, but I doubt it. I've only used it for espresso a couple of times, sticking mostly to filter, which has been a really interesting voyage of new flavour separation that just wasn't there before. I'd buy it again, although I might have stuck to filter only (who knows though, perhaps I'll get back into espresso again). That screw though….

Thanks everyone, really good to hear your thoughts and benefit from your collective wisdom. It seems like a really good option for someone like me who wants a flat-burr grinder and currently uses a Niche Zero.

@"JammyDodger"#789 My experience is given in detail on my thread below if you have time and patience to read. 😁 Summary: I had an opportunity to test the Duo as one of the real world users before it was released. Without going into the details, I did not. I placed an order for the Duo with both burrs on 1 April — the day it was released. I come from a hand-grinder family. I wanted a grinder that simply works without any inconvenient workflow and mods both for espresso and filter. I could have saved lots of money if I had taken a different route. I liked the idea of swappable burrs on a daily basis - like 2 - 4 times a day. I enjoyed doing that for 6 weeks. I had grown out of it and no longer do this for two reasons. * The filter from Duo’s filter burrs set is a class act. It spoiled me to an extent that both myself and my wife, who still drinks instant, like the filter more than the Americano from the espresso burrs set for reasons of clarity, flavour, … * I did not enjoy the daily swapping of burrs anymore after 6 weeks of swapping a few times a day. In short, we like the coffee from the Duo. The filter has become our daily driver and the espresso for the week end or when we have guests at home. I don’t see this pattern changing. https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/1851-coffee-with-duo/272

Niche Duo - problems or bias?

LMSC

Will I buy again?

Yes, if money is not a factor.

I am indeed on the look out for another electric for my daughter, who is mainly into espresso. Financing her purchase will be one of the main criteria.

dfk41

Thinking about your original question…….there was a tremendous bias shown against the Duo as there was against the Zero. But both grinders have shone through. The Zero was responsible for the turn towards single dosing and the Duo has followed suit. Why does such bias exist? In the old days it was mainly due to people having alliances with other companies, running scared at the prospect of competition. Nowadays the problem is more complex. You do not hear so much from the knockers now as the products are mature. I remember so well, when the Zero came out one member on another forum, well known to all of us asking me if he could borrow my Zero as he did not want to buy one but really did want to have a go with one. I duly obliged. What he did, was strip the machine down and then with his cabal of buddies start to rip it to shreds. They claimed they had sourced the motor for $5 on Aliexpress. This of course was total nonsense as the motor is custom wound but it did not stop them.

There must be a Duo owner near to you @JammyDodger. Post your post code and see if anyone invites you over

Gagaryn

dfk41 They claimed they had sourced the motor for $5 on Aliexpress. This of course was total nonsense as the motor is custom wound but it did not stop them.

I’m not knocking the Niche - a happy owner, but I reckon that price for the motor seems about right, perhaps even less when ordering in the quantities that Niche is.

There is no magic in the motor, it will be ordered to a specific specification which is what people will be referring to when they claim it is custom wound, that’s normal practice.

From the teardowns I’ve seen Niche are sourcing the motors from a variety of Chinese suppliers. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if some of these ended up on Aliexpress, often happens due to supplier overstock and also not unknown for suppliers to dump stuff on AliExpress that was rejected by the intended customers.

JammyDodger

@dfk41 - I can’t believe they took your Niche apart! Unbelievable!

Some people are never happy it seems.

Great idea to ask around if anyone has one locally. I’m based in Bristol and happy to drive to anyone kind enough to show me their Duo.

Thanks guys!

DavecUK

JammyDodger I can’t believe they took your Niche apart! Unbelievable!

Well the person who did that and trashed the grinder had a huge amount of personal bias…his side-line was selling used lever machines and grinders….especially grinders. His used super jolly sales probably slumped shortly after the Niche Zero came out. He and his mates did their best to talk down the original Niche Zero, but funny enough, they couldn’t stop it becoming a huge success.

MediumRoastSteam

JammyDodger - I’m near J13 on the M4 if it helps. Happy to show you both grinders side by side! 👍

JammyDodger

MediumRoastSteam That’s very kind of you - thank you for the offer! It’s a little far from me (unless I’ve made a geography-based boob), but if I’m headed over to London any time soon I’ll get in touch to see if the offer still stands - much appreciated!

MediumRoastSteam

JammyDodger no worries. It’s about 60 miles from Bristol.

BrendaninBrooklyn

JammyDodger My experience thus far is yes, there is a small vocal group of people who actively and for the most part inaccurately attack Niche the company, the Duo or both. I have stopped reacting or attempting to educate any of them. I do however wish that moderators on those forums responded to obvious distortions of facts.

dfk41

Gagaryn Let us just suppose you are right then matey, and the motors whether custom specified or not cost circa $5…….are you aware of very many failing? I do not know how many units the Zero has sold but it must be tens of thousands. @1% per 10,000 fail rate, that is 100 units. I cannot say with certainty but on the various forums etc that Niche are discussed on, I have not seem 100 units reported as having failed with motor issues. This would suggest that they are doing something right with the motors?

DavecUK

Gagaryn I’m not knocking the Niche - a happy owner, but I reckon that price for the motor seems about right, perhaps even less when ordering in the quantities that Niche is.

There is no magic in the motor, it will be ordered to a specific specification which is what people will be referring to when they claim it is custom wound, that’s normal practice.

From the teardowns I’ve seen Niche are sourcing the motors from a variety of Chinese suppliers. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if some of these ended up on Aliexpress, often happens due to supplier overstock and also not unknown for suppliers to dump stuff on AliExpress that was rejected by the intended customers.

Just to correct some speculation.

The motors don’t cost $5, they are more.
Normal practice is not custom wound (and other customisations), people generally take what is the standard motors and gear it to suit, or get close to their requirements.
I believe they work closely with1 supplier to ensure quality and specification. None of the motors for Niche are dumped on Aliexpress, or available to anyone but Niche.

I know this because I specified the exact speed I wanted the Duo motor to run at and the ratios of a planetary box could not achieve that speed with the standard offerings. It required motors running at a specific speed with a specific planetary ratio to not only give the required torque (as you know it will grind 18g of green coffee from a standing start), but also the required burr speed range for 230/240 and 110/120V. This speed required to minimise the burr overpack on grinding to reduce fines. caused by coffee grinding against itself.

All whilst delivering an acceptable grind time!

P.S. The Niche Zero also had to work at 110/120 230/240 and 100V (a side project)

Gagaryn

dfk41 It’s quite a leap of logic to imply that I suggested any motors were failing! I said they would be getting the motors built to a defined specification; that’s a good thing and equates to “doing something right with the motors”. :-)

lyxotte

dfk41 Sorry to hijak your post! Had a question about a piece of your gear - the Caravel. Wasn’t sure if it sold yet. Pinged the post a couple of days back.

dfk41

Gagaryn Sorry if I was not clear. I was not implying that you did say the motors had a history of failing. What I was saying, was whether a $5 Aliexpress special, or something else, Niche seem to have the motor correct. The motor came in for special criticism by ‘the cabal’. I do not know if you were around in those days to witness the intimidation and nastiness that was chucked at folks associated with Niche. Dave came in for special treatment by the bullying pack. What they failed to recognise, was that making a grinder sub £500 that was as close to design perfection as you could get (sure some dislike the colours, some want a hopper, some want flat burrs) drove him on. This is exactly the same as the same mob, mainly pro Londinium people carried on their attack when news of the Evo Leva started to circulate. Look what happened there. And remember, if there had been no Evo Leva then the Nurri, much loved by some would never have seen the light of day

dfk41

lyxotte Sorry, I missed this. I have been playing with the Caravel recently and have decided to keep it for the moment. Good luck with finding one!

JHCCoffee

It seems that the “politeness filter” that most people have for in person conversation is removed for some people, online. Any core values that we all treasure just disappear, particularly if they are anonymous. I once subsequently met a terrible on-line troll in person and was amazed that his in person behavior was relatively friendly. So I just do not participate in online conversations that involve any form of mean spirited debate. And I am very careful about everything that I write and post in a public venue, as anything I post can impact others, along with my own reputation.

Gagaryn

DavecUK Just to correct some speculation.

The motors don’t cost $5, they are more.
Normal practice is not custom wound (and other customisations), people generally take what is the standard motors and gear it to suit, or get close to their requirements.
I believe they work closely with1 supplier to ensure quality and specification. None of the motors for Niche are dumped on Aliexpress, or available to anyone but Niche.

A lot of generally and believes in that, sounds like you are correcting speculation with more speculation :-).

I’m not questioning the quality of the motors - I never have! But I’m afraid the claim that Niche are doing something unique or special by having motors built to their specifications just isn’t correct - contrary to your claim, that is normal manufacturing practice and there are dozens of suppliers in China (and elsewhere) geared up and ready to build motors to whatever specification the customer demands - it’s exactly their business model and motor manufacturing is a huge market. Minimum order quantities with many of these suppliers is magnitudes smaller than Niche will be ordering - for both modified catalogue parts and blueprint builds.

Anyway - I’m out now ahead of the inevitable pile on and claims that I’m an idiot and don’t know what I’m talking about as wasn’t party to design process etc. etc.

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK - Dave, quick question:

This thread/post: https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/2246-simple-niche-modifications/34, the member says Niche has confirmed that’s the motor used. It refers to a post mentioned earlier on on that thread, with the specification of the motor and the manufacturer/seller contact details for orders. In that specific post, it has a picture of the motor (here for convenience)

So it might be that anyone can order the motor if they want to? But it might not be for the correct Niche spec?

Personally, don’t really care about cost of the motor, who makes it, whether it costs £5 or £50 and all the politics behind it. Just wanted bring this to the foreground as this has now turned into a motor discussion.

dfk41

Gagaryn I. do not think you are an idiot, or that you do not know what you are talking about either. But, I do think you are applying general engineering principles to a specialist coffee product.

Gagaryn

dfk41 But, I do think you are applying general engineering principles to a specialist coffee product.

I am. Because they are 100% applicable. Specialist coffee products are not magical.

Cuprajake

dfk41 I do

dfk41

Gagaryn Have you wondered why Dave has not weighed in? He could……he could tell you things that you are simply not aware of……not every aspect of design is shown on the table top for all to see……but, I am not going to convince you since you want to see data and I cannot supply that……and I doubt Dave will!

Gagaryn

dfk41 Have you wondered why Dave has not weighed in?

I’ve wondered why you haven’t noticed that he has.

dfk41 he could tell you things that you are simply not aware of

No doubt :-)

dfk41 I am not going to convince you since you want to see data

Do I? What data do I want to see? You seem to know what I want better than I know what I want. :-)