Dave has posted a thread on [energy prices! ](https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/260-energy-prices) How do we save some precious pounds, considering we are going to be battered with another 51% hike in April and may be more in going forward? * Insulation - Would certainly consider this * Check the windows and doors to see if they are good * Energy alternatives - heavy investment. Is it worth it, leaving aside embracing greens? The electricity is already 100% green Solar panels - probably the cheapest alternative Biomass - no view Heat pump - too expensive and massive energy loss en route home Wind turbine These affect all of us. Some will opine we will be happy to keep the current status in our life time. Fair enough! 😊 What do you guys think? Thx Thx

Well like many we since living here we have had extra loft insulation, cavity wall insulation and double galzing put in. Last year our conservatory was about 20 years old and so we had new frames windows and a solid roof put on it. The difference that made was unbelievable. Before during the winter it was freezing even with a big radiator and air conditioning unit that blew out warm air. In the summer it was unbearably hot and the air conditioner had to be on all the time so you can imagine how much leccy that used. Since putting on the proper roof we've had the Big wall mounted air conditioner take out and it is perfect in both the winter (warm and cosey) and in the summer comfortable to sit in. Our neighbours just had an Air source heat pump fitted about four months ago. First they had to have wall insulation pumped in (1982 built house didn't have them) and then two week later the air source heat pump fitted which not including the price of the insulation cost about 12k. Will be interesting to see what they think of it by the end of this winter both efficiency and cost wise. My new combi I had two years ago cost me about 2k fitted. Now I know it's not eco friendly, but I simply do not have the sort of money needed to fit either air source heat pumps or solar. I think ALL new houses should be fitted with solar, maybe air source heat pumps or an eco alternative for heating and a tank in the loft to catch rain water to flush the loos. But no government will pass that as law.

@"Pompeyexile"#p4741 Very useful insights indeed. Many thanks. The heat pump costs do not surprise me at all. That cost looks conservative to me. It will be useful if you could come back with a view after the winter. Ours is 1980 built. I am not sure if the walls have had the cavity wall insulted. I do see signs of it on external walls, though. The previous owner said he had put 200 mm loft insulation. For all of us, probably it’s worth taking a look to see what needs to be done to keep the energy bills down. As far as the eco alternatives are concerned, it’s about striking a balance — running costs, efficiency, and investment! Difficult period ahead for all of us for sure. 😌

Are solar panels really a cost option these days? I have not kept up with things, but presumably now you have to pay the full installation costs yourself (unless you 'rent' out your roof space) then get the benefit of free electricity whilst it is generating with ny excess being pumped back into the system. With the current cost of electricity being so high, does it make sense buying in to help alive a temporary situation?

my electric is 100% renewable but its doubled so not sre how that works haha

Wow, drawn in by the headline quote I applied for further information. The advertised cost of £3650 has grown to £11,995.......

> @"Pompeyexile"#p4741 Our neighbours just had an Air source heat pump fitted about four months ago. First they had to have wall insulation pumped in (1982 built house didn’t have them) and then two week later the air source heat pump fitted which not including the price of the insulation cost about 12k. Will be interesting to see what they think of it by the end of this winter both efficiency and cost wise. The problem is they will have made it into the renweable heat incentive…RFHI which means their electricity is well subsidised as they get a payout for every kW of heat they generate. e.g. below shows the rate for a 3 bedroom house. If they use 17,000kWh per year, they get £1844 back, the RHI is capped at 20,000 kwH So by their examples a 3 bed semi will be £3230 of electric heat generated, but they will pay you 1844 for the **kW you generated,** making the bill only £1386 (if you generated it at a 1:1 cop , **these are the current rates, people who got in years ago get much higher rates".** So far this sounds great 8p per unit, even better when the COP is about 3 ish, as the payment is based around what you **generate**, not what you consume to generate it. So it actually works our at 8/3 pence per unit….or **2.66p per unit true cost.** This is absolutely fantastico, because gas it about 3p per unit. It's also why when they got a grant for the system and a few years ago were paying virtually nothing, some people even made money, they are all bloody evangelists. Now reality needs to kick in, The RHI stops in April 22!!!!! To heat tht 3 bed semi will take 17000kWhr for the year, **with a COP of 3 average**, that's 5667 units of electricity required at ***19p per unit current prices this comes to £1077 to heat your house, vs £510 for gas.*** So those who got in a few years ago are super enthusiastic, the truth is that for the rest of us, it will cost considerably more and I have not included water heating costs, which will be far higher, or the fact that you have to have the systems on all the time in case…whereas gas can be reduced if it warms up. It doesn't include the very high installation costs for most homes (much higher than quoted and iot certainly doesn't include the CAP, for larger or less efficient homes using 20,000kW per year!!! https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/renewable-heat-incentive/article/renewable-heat-incentive-rhi/rhi-costs-and-earnings-auJtQ4P32RWW [upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/tbUhEVX.png]

@"dfk41"#p4754 Is that for the solar panel?

It most certainly is[URL=https://i.imgur.com/UQpmRr5.png][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/UQpmRr5.png[/IMG][/URL]

> @"DavecUK"#p4757 If they use 17,000kWh per year, they get £1844 back, the RHI is capped at 20,000 kwH So, if the 4 or 5 beds consume > 20K, there are no incentives / subsidies, are they ? > @"DavecUK"#p4757 it will cost considerably more and I have not included water heating costs > @"DavecUK"#p4757 It doesn’t include the very high installation costs for most homes Welcome to rip-off Britain! 😂 ![Giphy - scared season 1 GIF by The White Princess](https://media4.giphy.com/media/3oKIPb7sHFQ9Irn54Y/giphy.gif?cid=bb77869fz8rsafapaleok8idewtv302ngv5q4xdyi4g03edr&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)

> @"LMSC"#p4770 So, if the 4 or 5 beds consume > 20K, there are no incentives / subsidies, are they ? Not on anything above 20k Kwh…but of course after April, the RHI is finished for new installations!!!

Green energy

LMSC

pete10uk Useful information. Thx

I have no idea how these works.

So, you will be 5K out of pocket after grants, and still need solar panels for electricity?

Why do you need to have 200L hot water 24 × 7 × 365 please ? Did the person advise what the running costs of this alone ?

Cuprajake

I thought heater pumps were only used with under floor heating.

LMSC

Cuprajake I was looking at it . It is very effective for underfloor heating; looks like the standard radiators are not efficient. They must be replaced by an over-sized radiator, which is a no go!

LMSC

I had a brief chat with some one.

They suggest a combo - heat pump for gas and solar for electricity. The ground floors are generally underfloor heated and heat pump compliant radiators for the first floor.

The floors need to be opened up for pipes, which also means getting rid of the cold water tank and replace with combi boilers or mega flow depending on the size of the property.

Del_UK

Dumnorix

It’s a bit like asking how much is a reasonable cost for an espresso setup, £100 to £10000+ wouldn’t be out the question..

Panels can cost as little as £70-80 and an inverter starts at £400 for 2.2kw, but you could pay £200+ per panel and have a £800+ inverter and fit a load of smart systems to power boilers/charge cars etc.

I’d say, without knowing the roof/electrical condition/property size, that about £1700-£2200 for materials and about £35-45 per hour labour depending on ease of install. Don’t forget you’ll likely need scaffolding and the paperwork to sign it all off.

LMSC

A couple of surveyors are expected to visit us addressing - insulation separately and the other focusing on what our home requires and the options in front of us are!

Not sure, if they will look at if windows and doors require replacements.

Do we need a separate surveyor who can advise if the properly requires doors/windows replacement ?

In the case of insulation, what are the choices ? Are spray foam insulations any good? I hear a lot of pros and cons. Long shelf life, energy efficient, mould and condensation problems, timber decay and reduced value of the property? What do you guys think? What’s the go to place, where we will get an unbiased view please ? I was thinking, if the council is the best place.

Thx,

Sundar

dfk41

I thought the spray insulations were frowned upon and would make your property non mortgeable?

LMSC

dfk41 No idea mate. It’s very popular though. It’s a divided opinion. I will check with the council, although I don’t want this in my property given the ambiguities. It’s a chemical, right ?

dfk41

https://thinkplutus.com/learn/spray-foam-insulation/

Just google it!

LMSC

This is the latest from RPSA. I spoke to them this morning. They said it is better to take a cautious approach.

I would recommend caution, if anyone looking at insulating their property. Thx dfk41 for your article link.

DavecUK

With any insulation, it’s best to be super careful. I remember people adding cavity wall insulation to older houses and having all sorts of problems…. Definitely read up on it, especially if you have an older house.

LMSC

DavecUK Yeah. Spray foam on the attic is a toss up. It’s not worth the risk, given the lack of consensus. Bizzare, it was included in the green deal, despite RPSA’s reservations.

Cavity wall insulation problems are primarily caused by using brown fibre, damp penetration, cold spots or the external wall isn’t suited — lump in cavity or external skin has broken resulting in rain water getting inside the cavity itself. The installers themselves can be a problem to deal with. One way to avoid these problems is seeking an installer registered with Cavity Insulation Guarantee Agency

Elcarajillo

An important factor in spray roof insulation is the sealing of the roof space causing condensation / dampness.

Any moisture generated in the house migrates up to the roof, unless the roof is well ventilated the moisture is trapped.

Why would you want to insulate the roof space, the heat is required in the rooms.

Sealing roof spaces was found to be a problem when slate roofs on terraced houses were sealed with bitumen as a cheap way of repairing perished / damaged roofs.

It is a requirement in Building Regs to have ventilation to a roof space.

There seems to be a push on cold calling for roof spray insulation.

If you go for cavity wall insulation , take care in what you have injected, they are not all equal.

Many people have had problems with damp transfer from outer skin to the inside.

Others have had problems with stinging eyes and breathing problems from fumes given off by the chemicals.

LMSC

Elcarajillo Thx

I had a detailed conversation with one of the senior members of RPSA. They had a round table with folks from spray foam representatives, mortgage companies, surveyors and consumers. The challenges were proving the spray foam is harmless to timbers, no condensation, etc. The surveyors were divided far and against. Hence their note of caution to the public.

Cavity wall insulation has 3 types: injected foam, polystyrene bead, blown fibre. The last option is not recommended.

As I said, it is advisable to get the job done by an installer registered with the Cavity Insulation Guarantee Agency. Guys from Insta group will be surveying the property and they are registered with the agency. Fingers crossed.

An interesting read is here, if any one is interested in.

LMSC

The insulations surveyor came and did a thorough examinations of the cavity walls and loft.

He said the loft is mostly insulated up to 300ml. Some areas may benefit from some top up. He did not think it is economical to let the company do it at £400 plus VAT.

Nothing is required. He said we may grab a few packets and top up where required.

This leaves windows and doors, and renewables alternatives.

One local windows traded came, advised the draught can’t be fixed, parts to beef up the windows and doors efficiency are not available as they are > 40 years old. He advised replacing everything except the garage garden-facing doors and windows. He recommended they are no longer fit purpose!

Elcarajillo

If you go ahead with new windows/ double glazing do your research.

In addition to checking on the installers track record, find out who’s UPVC sections they use ( they are not all equal)

Check on number of chambers in the section’s, are they internally beaded. What type of glass are they going to use.

Do they use quality ironmongery (security). If you have panels in lower sections what is the insulation value ?

Do they foam between back of window and masonry ( in addition to mastic pointing.

Do not be fobbed off by how everything is covered by FENSA . It is an insurance scheme and if anything goes wrong

you are on your own. From experience !!!

LMSC

Elcarajillo

I don’t understand any of what you advised. 😇 I am going to have to read a bit to get my head around this.

Two of the local guys are checkatrade listed - score of 9.9+ I know how these scores works!

Two local companies are recommended by a builder who did some work for us. We are also speaking to the distributor and installer of Velfac; this recommendation came from @hornbyben. Let’s see how these go!

LMSC

Elcarajillo who’s UPVC sections they use ( they are not all equal)

Check on number of chambers in the section’s, are they internally beaded. What type of glass are they going to use.

Do they use quality ironmongery (security). If you have panels in lower sections what is the insulation value ?

Do they foam between back of window and masonry ( in addition to mastic pointing.

Do not be fobbed off by how everything is covered by FENSA . It is an insurance scheme and if anything goes wrong

you are on your own. From experience !!!

Would you mind explaining these few points a little please ? What do they mean, what’s good, acceptable or otherwise? Thx

Elcarajillo

LMSC

Elcarajillo

I have replied to this but it seems to have disappeared into the ether. ????@ DavecUK

DavecUK

Elcarajillo I have replied to this but it seems to have disappeared into the ether. ????@ DavecUK

I have no idea, sometime I think I have done a reply, but I have not…I then go to answer something else, but because the editor is sticky (follows you)..I have made the mistake of deleting the reply, thinking I had actually posted it.

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