They are present at the institutional stand of Tanzania Booth DC-007 From tomorrow till Saturday. I remember these guys from Rimini. Paolo is there. [upl-image-preview url=https://i.imgur.com/3NxUh7L.jpeg]

Hi Dave I have already contacted you on another forum , where you suggested the Evo Leva II is a end game machine - well i got mine last week A full blown EVO LEVA II with all bells and whistles except the lights package - My questions 1- How come the safety system only works when the machine is turned on I thought it was a passive system not active? 2-This machine seems to consume way more water than a E61 Bianca does ? The drip tray fills quickly, Is this normal ? 3-Please inform ACS to include some lubricating grease with the machine for lubricating the piston seals 4-Why does ACS not ship a 26mm basket depth instead of two 31mm 5- the printed user manual is atrocious, badly translated to english and not clear at times 6- i would also add that the furnished tamper could be a little tighter to the basket walls

> @"selmerfudd"#p70998 My questions > > 1- How come the safety system only works when the machine is turned on I thought it was a passive system not active? > > 2-This machine seems to consume way more water than a E61 Bianca does ? The drip tray fills quickly, Is this normal ? > > 3-Please inform ACS to include some lubricating grease with the machine for lubricating the piston seals > > 4-Why does ACS not ship a 26mm basket depth instead of two 31mm > > 5- the printed user manual is atrocious, badly translated to english and not clear at times > > 6- i would also add that the furnished tamper could be a little tighter to the basket walls 1. It requires enough water to be in the chamber to work, it's a passive system in that you don't need to do anything, but if the machine is switched off for example, there's no water in the lever cylinder and the lever would just fly up. It's designed to save you if the portafilter comes undone during a shot…the cup will smash, but the lever will come up slowly. 2. yes, when you pull the lever down, you fill the piston chamber. If your shot is say 32g, the other 25 ish grams of water will simply be ejected as clean water into the drip tray, In a lever without the auto pressure release system, you have to remove the cup and the same amount of water drains thru the coffee. **This is totally normal for all lever machines.** 3. This isn't as easy as it sounds…Invest in a tube of Molycote 111 it will last you a lifetime. The Evo2 is not very needy for seals or lubrication, I know someone whose seals are well over 3 years old and he has never lubricated or replaced them. I would recommend once every 6 months to 1 year (more likely to be 1 year). This machine has a very different group to say a Londinium, where you may have read a lot about very regular lubrication and frequent seal replacement. 4. I have recommended they also ship a 26mm, they probably just have not got round to it yet. 5. All things Italian, but it's not complicated 6. I thought mine was on the very tight side, surprised yours is loose, as it should be the same. If they are too tight, they can jam when they go deeper, or in alternative baskets e.g. My 26mm deep one. A few niggles about manual and tamper I guess, but for me it certainly is end game, super stable, quiet and produces fabulous shots that have that certain something only the LSM group can give. I don't hanker after any other machines.

@"DavecUK"#p71008 Thank you for your response , please understand that my comments do not reflect a negative view of the machine - I love the coffee it produces but as an engineer we are always wanting to refine so please take my comments here as a simple wish list 1-wish i had known about the 26 I would have asked Paolo to include one, 2-on another note there is one issue that could have been thought out better - Let us say the auto flush setting is set to 4.9 bar for a double shot and the pre-infusion setting is set to 5.5 bar- in this case because the pump cycles its way to the full five bars of pre-infusion instead of ramping slowly - and does so in pulses of pump activity causing a bouncing pressure as the grinds absorb the pre-infusion water -- the auto flush will engage and empty the group of its water during pre-infusion --this could have been thought out and thus preventing the auto flush to engage so early 3-what about water quality does the water used need to have a mineral content in order for the probes in the boiler to work correctly , can one use distilled or demineralized water - in other videos and machines you used RO water - how did you manage to get the water level probes to function correctly 4-did ACS ever consider a standby mode at a lower boiler temp 5- the "machine on" ,"machine off" programing leaves a lot to be desired - To only have one program per day is inconvenient, ACS could do better ! it would have been preferable to set a programmable "on time duration" then reverting to stand by , as example a 2.5 "hours on" and then revert to standby . Added to this the daily programming would then basically be to program the "COME ON TIMES ONLY: - this is the way another high end machine works and it works really really well , very flexible !! Example , the operator programs a 2.5 hour "on time before standby or even off if the design cant permit stand by " then he can go to step 2 and program this to happen on Monday at 6 AM , 11 AM, 3 PM, and 7 PM - and each other day with possibility of different "on times" every day

Buy a pack of these: # Meross Smart Plug with Energy Monitoring, Mini Smart WiFi Plug Work with Alexa, Google Home, SmartThings, Smart Socket Remote Control Timer Plug, No Hub Required, 13A, 4 Packs

> @"selmerfudd"#p71014 Thank you for your response , please understand that my comments do not reflect a negative view of the machine - I love the coffee it produces but as an engineer we are always wanting to refine so please take my comments here as a simple wish list > > 1-wish i had known about the 26 I would have asked Paolo to include one, > > 2-on another note there is one issue that could have been thought out better - > > Let us say the auto flush setting is set to 4.9 bar for a double shot and the pre-infusion setting is set to 5.5 bar- in this case because the pump cycles its way to the full five bars of pre-infusion instead of ramping slowly - and does so in pulses of pump activity causing a bouncing pressure as the grinds absorb the pre-infusion water – the auto flush will engage and empty the group of its water during pre-infusion –this could have been thought out and thus preventing the auto flush to engage so early > > 3-what about water quality does the water used need to have a mineral content in order for the probes in the boiler to work correctly , can one use distilled or demineralized water - in other videos and machines you used RO water - how did you manage to get the water level probes to function correctly > > 4-did ACS ever consider a standby mode at a lower boiler temp 1. You can buy them relatively cheaply from Amazon, or extremely cheaply from Chinese web sites. ACS alreay include more useful bits and pieces/accessories than many other manufacturers. Including things like Molykote, baskets etc.. simply pushes up the sale price. Unfairly against other machines offering less. Also not everyone wants the same things. e.g. They actually include a proper tamper and portafilter ring, other manufacturers don't. 2. If the auto release is set to 4.9 bar, that is very low, but fair enough, lets examine the straw man. The auto flush is engaging because at 5.5 bar measured by the machines main board and the auto end of shot pressure measured by the small board on the tiny display, could be out slightly. 5.5 bar is far to high for preinfusion really and so close to a 6 bar programmed limit where the system detects you have moved from preinfusion to main shot. This changes the timer and activates the release function, so it can now operate. As the release pressure is only slightly lower than the group and during PI the pressure can drop slightly…especially as you pull the lever down, then the autorelease will immediately go off. If you really have a need to use those values for PI and AR, you are better off selecting manual release and pressing the middle button at your desired pressure. In this way the programmed design so the machine works correctly for 99.9% of users, won't prevent you from doing what you want. You might say why not have settable values for all this, but this would make the complexity level in the small board hugely complex for most normal users 3. No, machines will function correctly on water with a TDS of 3%, this is true of all machines. RODI which has 0% will probably function as well, but I have never used RODI water. 4. Yes, the Vesuvius has this function, but the Vostok doesn't. This is because the entire machine is ready to use in 15m from Cold, and most prosumer E61 standby systems take about the same amount of time As for all the other stuff around timers The Vesuvius had a slightly more complex timer (it used the same main board), but it's hardly ever used as it's much easier and more flexible to use a smart switch and program it to do what you want via a phone app or Alexia routines. The main board used is the same for the Vesuvius, Evo2, Vostok 1, 2 and 3 group. It's an older tech board, but hugely reliable and made by Gicar, it has a limited amount of programming and inputs it can accept. In fact for the Evo/Vostock extra input pins had to be added! The Vesuvius had one set of programming, the Vostok another and neither can accept more programming, they are close to their limit. Changes by Gicar are very difficult to get, taking sometimes years, but always 9 months or so are hugely expensive, and often they make mistakes. This is because very large manufacturers like Lelit all get priority. This is why ACS have developed their own main board to move away from Gicar, which most manufacturers use, the rest use Proelind.. ACS will be using their own main board in the Falcon I, and gradually roll out it's use to their entire range. This board is an "entire powerful system on a chip", graphics, memory, WiFi, Blutooth, processor etc.. It will then interface with other daughter boards and components, like the auto shot release board….using a CAN bus system, just like in cars. This will be more advanced than any other machines on the market. This main board has the advantages of being very robust and much much smaller than the current mainboard and able to accept a huge amount of programming and variety of displays of any resolution and size, as well as great software version user updatability as new functions become available. It's far better ACS continue to develop what is the future, than throw **large** amounts of money in adding a few new functions to old Gicar tech.

> @"selmerfudd"#p71014 Let us say the auto flush setting is set to 4.9 bar for a double shot and the pre-infusion setting is set to 5.5 bar- in this case because the pump cycles its way to the full five bars of pre-infusion instead of ramping slowly - and does so in pulses of pump activity causing a bouncing pressure as the grinds absorb the pre-infusion water – the auto flush will engage and empty the group of its water during pre-infusion –this could have been thought out and thus preventing the auto flush to engage so early it is so difficult to believe that you are any kind of engineer, reading your 2 posts as there seems to be a clear misunderstanding of some basic points. you expect the safety system to work with no water. there's no polite answer ( to an actual engineer) but Dave managed to find one!! why would you use such parameters in real life other than to prove the machine works as it should and the parameters are nonsense. set realistic figures like pre infusion 2.5 - 3 bars dump 7 to 8 bars depending on output. im using 21.5g in the 32mm basket to get 48g out not sure what country you are in 26mm basket https://www.bluestarcoffee.eu/en/IMS-Competition-San-Marco-Basket/m-3422.aspx Tamper : https://www.bluestarcoffee.eu/en/Precision-Coffee-Tamper-544mm/m-5414.aspx im in the UK and am sure there are many suppliers. I actually prefer the ACS basket to the IMS! As for the drip tray. Plumb it in, and the inlet water. Its next level, you just use it. fills and empties itself. clean the drip tray every few weeks. Dave doesn't agree with me on this! I cant imagine a machine like this in use and not plumbed in. Do you add water to your washing machine using a bucket every time you use it > @"selmerfudd"#p71014 4-did ACS ever consider a standby mode at a lower boiler temp > > 5- the “machine on” ,“machine off” programing leaves a lot to be desired - To only have one program per day is inconvenient, ACS could do better ! > > it would have been preferable to set a programmable “on time duration” then reverting to stand by , as example a 2.5 “hours on” and then revert to standby . Added to this the daily programming would then basically be to program the "COME ON TIMES ONLY: - this is the way another high end machine works and it works really really well , very flexible !! Mate, its 2024. there's this thing called WiFi. buy a wifi plug. you can have as many schedules as you want as well as "hey google turn evo on" whenever you want. if you forget to turn it off "hey google turn evo off" will respond to the rest later after more coffee! P.S im a standard user . no link at all to ACS (or Dave). my opinions are my own based on owning and using the machine. There are a vast array of opinions for a single machine. you cant be an engineer. No lighting kit on top of not understanding basic parameter logic. ,🫣😋🤔 [URL=https://i.imgur.com/0KoL1iJ.jpeg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/0KoL1iJ.jpeg[/IMG][/URL]

@"Adrianmsmith"#p71017 Adrianmsmith,, I do not know who or where u are , and i am going to be kind with my rebuttal - but where you got the idea that I expect the safety system to work with no water i will never know --to my knowing the safety system has not been described as to how it functions, as you know it has been kept quite hush hush by ACS- as well as by Dave Corby -whether it functions on a hydraulic or a purely mechanical system is anyones guess and I have not opened the group chamber nor looked at the piston to see how it functions , and actually nor will I do so ! As for the rest of your comments - no i prefer not to go the WIFI plug route if possible I like stuff integrated as is the bluetooth and weblink in my car and in my Nikon etc etc .I do not want another gadget for every feature . As for plumbed in - no -- my machine is too far from a water source and even so i would not remodel my house around an espresso machine and plumb it in- then requiring another gadget just to sense a possible water leak in any connections. As for pre-infusion values - this machine does not hit the 12ML/sec water debit to get a good puck saturation - i do not need high bars for pre infusion but I do need a high water output - the ideal pre infusion process - is to immediately start with a high water output for maximum saturation for a short time because the puck provides resistance especially to pre infusion - (without a high debit or pressure, for an instant or two, you will end up wetting the top layer of the puck producing an over extraction of the puck top and under extraction of its bottom,) this is well known - ( precisely why a Slayer does not pre-infuse -- it simply provides a more gentle extraction process because the water flow is too low during the first part of the coffee making process and the puck bottom is never saturated correctly ) ##### At this point u might say but i see drops coming from the porta-filter into the cup - those first drops are not a product of a good preinfusion they are but seepage from the top layer and they are already saturated so they cannot provide pre infusion to the the puck bottom , ***it needs to be done by a high water output and a good pressure to push down the water to the bottom puck layer then ""a back off time" where pressure is backed off and permitted to dissipate through the puck ( this might even be more so true of a deeper basket like the LSM 54 mm size ) -*** resulting in what you would want a final pre-infusin of about 2- bars -- ##### **BUT THIS SHOULD ONLY OCCUR ONCE THE PUCK IS FULLY SATURATED - NOT BEFORE !!! TO SATURATE FULLY YOU NEED MORE THAN 2-3 BARS FOR A VERY SHORT BURST OF TIME OR YOU NEED A VERY HIGH WATER OUTPUT-** *like La Marzocco does at 12ml/sec initial flow !!* I emailed re this with Paolo at ACS and he assured me the Leva does not hit 12ml/sec. My guess is that was the reason ACS abandoned the vibe as well as the gear pump due to long ramp up time and very low water output -YOU CANNOT PRE-INFUSE CORRECTLY WITH A VIBE PUMP - YOU WILL END UP WITH A COFFEE WITH NO MOUTHFEEL !

Don't pre infusion at 5bars that's pointless imo The Evo works best with a quick infusion I used 5s Most replace the acs baskets with ims comp versions. Much better As for the programming side of things that personal preference, but the machine warms up in 15 mins. Rodi or distilled shouldn't be used, you can with a mineral added say potassium bicarbonate The Evo really extracts high so use temp as a tool to change extraction not infusion The long slow londinium drip drip drip don't work on it.

Hi Cuprajake please read my response to Adriansmith as to why the needs for high pe-infusion values at the onset of pre infusion !

Ok If you asked the flow rate and it wasn't sufficient why buy it Fwiw the full rate of the gear pump was quicker Peace out As I have the distinct feeling you love the sound of your own voice way more than mine

ACS - At World Of Coffee - Copenhagen

selmerfudd

DavecUK

Dave you wrote

"“No, machines will function correctly on water with a TDS of 3%, this is true of all machines. RODI which has 0% will probably function as well, but I have never used RODI water.”"

Did you not review a countertop RO system called Osmio in a YouTube video - did you not mention you used that RO water in a Vesuvius E61 for 4 years - or did I miss understand ?

Thx fir all your help

Selmerfudd

DavecUK

selmerfudd Your point being??

Note the word No has a comma after it and is an answer to a question you asked.!

selmerfudd

DavecUK

Oh Sorry - how did you manage to use RO water at less than 3% TDS and have the water probes to function correctly - I was under the impression that “boiler water level probes” need mineral content to function correctly - ?

Can I use distilled or demineralized water in my Leva Evo II ?? Or do I need to add minerals to it ?

Again thanks

Cuprajake

No, it’s corrosive

Use something like Dr pavlis

Or just plain ro water it usually has 30-70 TDs

Distilled or rodi will more likely not work

Cuprajake

To add if you are concerned about scale etc use the lowest TDs water you can like pavlis then use drops post brew to alter the taste. Alot of the decent lot do that

selmerfudd

As of now I use distilled water with additional third wave packets to make up for the lack of minerals -

my DE1 can function without the added minerals , since there is no boiler involved however for taste i add the mineral content anyway !

thx

Adrianmsmith

selmerfudd My questions

1- How come the safety system only works when the machine is turned on I thought it was a passive system not active?

This may be of use to you .

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/10/4757

selmerfudd

Adrianmsmith

Yes the mod is indeed interesting-Thank you– I am new to the Coffeetime forum, so many of the discussions i have not yet perused .

I also was concerned about the lower pressure attained with the safety system - as well as the overall weight discrepancy on the puck between 9 bar at 54mm and 9 bar at 58mm , well I managed to obtain 11.7 bar with safety ,close enough !

I still want to experiment with the flush lever pre charge and pre infusion , but so far I have not spent much time studying how to best use the flush system - to see what benefits it could yield.

thanks again interesting reading for sure

Adrianmsmith

selmerfudd

First off im not suggesting anyone does the mod, it was more to show you how it works…..

As for pre charge the best way is to set the flush lever so the pump engages as soon as you move the lever.

Make sure you move the lever to the pump on point . Pause until the pump starts

Get used to the speed required to move the lever so the pump stays on and you do not hit pre infusion pressure until the lever is at the bottom.

Why……..

By doing the above you will have very little air in the cylinder, only water.

So what……

This will give maximum pressure as air is easier to compress .

Im not buying in to the need to go past 11 bars . Some people mod to lighter springs to achieve lower start pressures as they want 9 or 10 bars max.

Psi is psi , or bar, at 20mm or 58mm.

Kg dead weight will give lower psi at 58mm and 54mm

selmerfudd

Adrianmsmith

As for the mod I understood it was simply to show the workings

How long have u had yours ?

Adrianmsmith

selmerfudd

I purchased this very early on. Its No2, originally purchased by Jake. (Dave has No1)

Prior to that i had Evo1 and Vesuvius after realising the ECM Synchronika was not the holy grail!!

Jakes, my coffee journey would be a good read when you have time ….

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/572-my-coffee-journey/691

Adrianmsmith

@selmerfudd

……

There you go .

Alternatively You can easily achieve any start pressure you want by putting very slight pressure on the lever after it settles.

@DavecUK Just for you, you will see the standard ACS flush lever arm is fitted 😎

selmerfudd

Adrianmsmith

I had reached out to Jake on youtube, prior to ordering my Leva II - he mentioned selling his machine early on due to issues! I also know that dealers are not enamored with ACS and not interested in their machines , i.e. Chris’ Coffee not wanting to bring in the Leva . My friend in Canada advised that the ACS dealer there dropped ACS for quality issues.

I might be out to lunch but it seems to me that somehow much of ( not all of course ) espresso is still in “cottage industry phase” with smallish builders with limited budgets developing and building machines. This drives costs up significantly , resulting in machines costing twice that of a full fledged fridge as example, not to mention the less than rigorous testing and quality control required for a consumer commodity product these days. Whether Decent or ACS and many others , it seems the real testers are the original buyers as was Jake and others.

I wish this industry had reached the “commodity stage” , with more realistic pricing, as are many appliances like the price of today’s microwaves compared to 2 decades ago!

I would like if some LEVA II owners chime in to comment on the consensus of the in cup result of the Leva II VS a DE1 ??

thanks to all who comment

dfk41

selmerfudd Am I going to be the first to cast doubts on the Decent? OK then, here goes……….you are buying some very clever software paired to a really cheap nasty vibe pump machine. You cannot mend them without sending them half around the world (just as well they do not weigh much). If Decent go out of business then you are stuffed (remembering the Decent is a failed crowdfunding machine to begin with). How many coffee afficianados really want to conduct a laboratory experiment every time they make a coffee. Yes, I hear howls of derision from all the Decent owners who feel they have the ultimate bit of kit (yes I agree, it is ridiculously overpriced). Bring it on!

PS I am a Leva 1 owner not a 2, so please feel free to disregard my rant

Adrianmsmith

selmerfudd

@dfk41

@selmerfudd as your aware i have no axe to grind , im and end user, enthusiast, engineer and coffee lover.

Im nothing to do with the industry or acs.

I started speaking to Jake when he was having issues with the machine.

I had no intention at that time to buy another machine as i already had synchronika, vesuvius and evo 1 in the kitchen, much to my wifes despair!

I subsequently sold the synchronika so was down to (just) 2 machines, both far superior to the ecm which i had previously “liked”. Mine was the limited edition anniversary edition.

The build quality, engineering and tech behind the ACS is better than the ECM

ECM are a relatively massive company more akin to the appliance maufactureres you speak about.

Not all companies are going to grow to that size .

Many specialist “small companies” exist in many fields, not just coffee machines.

Look at the Kafatek video Jake linked and hopefully you will see why they are more expensive than a mass produced model from china . Out of my price range much as I would love to try one.

Due to the size and man power needed prices are not going to be low, except ACS keep prices liw by selling direct. What price would that machine be if it were in a retail shop.

i would suggest as a minimum +50%

To what gain? Happy retailers mainly .

Im sure Jake will contribute here if he disagrees with anything I say but I visited him to view the Evo2 and obviously we shook hands and i now have the machine. Many things contributed to why he was not happy with the machine but I was happy also to purchase from him.

Nothing was hidden as most of the internet knew some part of the issues 😜😎

We had a good chat and Jake was happy to make space for the arrival of a Decent machine to take its place.

Whilst the Decent concept intrigues me , im currently still more of a tactile,valves and buttons kind if guy.

The Evo2 has a good mix of control gear linked to traditional mechanics.

Now if David, @“dfk41” lived a hundred miles closer we could have compared the Mk1 and mk2 to satisfy his curiosity. I did than anyway as i had the Mk1 Mk2 and Vesuvius in the Kitchen .

Now if anyone says the Mk2 is superior IN THE CUP in any way then they are simply trying to delude themselves about the cash they have spent. Most likely they “upgraded” for all the wrong reasons.

The “Upgrade” is not about that.

The “Upgrade ” is all about convenience mainly due to the auto dump feature .

I would hope the guy who purchased my mk1 will enjoy it for a few years.

Im more than happy with the upgrade as it follows my way if thinking.

But, the coffee in the cup is just as good .

The most controversial , if thats the right word, feature is indeed the totally unnecessary so called safety system I’ve been resisting playing with until now. Id always planned on drilling the second hole but was in no hurry to do so other than i was intrigued if it would make any difference

Ive said previously and still believe the system is not required for any safety reason, but im still interested to explore what it can do . Just because i can! Would maybe have done it 3 months earlier if id not broke my tibial plateau.

So the obvious facts.

Due to the restricted input which is by virtue of the need for massive damping should the portafilter be hit with a passing elephant and knocking it off whilst under pressure (sorry but it is true!!) the unaided natural max pressure is 10.5 bars.

This means if you are auto dumping by pressure, to get the same volume in the cup you need to lower your dump pressure by around 0.4 bars compared to using the standard sleeve. Not a real issue as most of the world believe 8 to 9 bars is required at some point in the espresso brewing process.

The system is still capable or shoving 70g of water through a puck, therefore my 46g is perfectly achievable. Video available if you don’t believe me!

selmerfudd

dfk41

Any manufacturer can go out of business , especially the smaller ones as is ACS , and many others

Or worse decide to no longer play in the espresso game !

Why anyone would buy a Nurri at this stage for example is beyond my ability to comprehend !

Worse is the looks of some of these machines - boy are they rudimentary .

But here we are liking our hobbies to the point that we will even work for manufacturers at no cost to them when we agree to fix their problems ourselves ! Imagine if GM had this luxury !!

selmerfudd

OK ,, well i kept it to myself but I have owned two Decent machines a 1.42 and a 1.45 my experience has been sort of OK but what I really need is mouthfeel in espresso and somehow Decent cant seem to get this right , whether reducing head space or whatever i tried i never got a sumptuous cup of coffee.

As for the claim that the DE1 temp probe is right at the coffee slurry is really a red herring , the DE1 does indeed measure at the slurry but then corrects temperature discrepancies way behind in the water mixing manifold ! - The front probe never sees the corrected temperature to the slurry until its too late , ( in my opinion of course ) .

Adrianmsmith

selmerfudd but what I really need is mouthfeel in espresso and somehow Decent cant seem to get this right

Im thinking that is more down to grinder amd maybe to some extent basket?

Was my main issue with niche zero. Im not in to mouth feel ,☕, hence my current line up….. and i can’t afford the holy grail, flat max 2 😎 i may have previously said that!!

dfk41

selmerfudd Any manufacturer can go out of business , especially the smaller ones as is ACS , and many others

Or worse decide to no longer play in the espresso game !

Agree but they tend to use fairly standard industry parts so that their machines can live on.

chlorox

selmerfudd
Why would anyone buy nurri lever machines? Well, those of us who own nurri levas bought them because they make superlative espresso, are a joy and so easy to operate and use, and look incredibly good. As for nurri as a company, they have their own factory that is churning out nurri machines, and plan to be around for the long run. There are no guarantees that nurri or acs for that matter will survive in the far future, but then again there are no such guarantees of any coffee manufacturer at the end of the day…

selmerfudd

dfk41

that is Decent’s claim as well off the shelf parts !

dfk41

selmerfudd Whose shelf though?

selmerfudd

dfk41

Oh I am not a Decent fanatic so im not promoting them in any way

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