At this point, I am not going to name names, but I will. I have ordered some beans from a new roaster to me. Having sort of enjoyed them I thought about ordering some more, but before I did, I emailed them to ask why they did not put a 'roasted on' label/stamp when that is the sort of info the home user likes. I received a long winded reply telling me all about food labelling requirements, part of which I paste here: **'We did contemplate putting both dates on a bag, but this confuses many customers. (In our early days, some of our coffees just used to have the roast date on and some customers complained as they thought it was a “expired” best before date!) The compromise we came up with is to comply with the law but make it clear how this relates to the roast date.'** I quite naturally replied saying that might be as it may, but I am not talking about fulfilling legal requirements. I am talking about a firm claiming to be specialist roasters giving their customer base the type of information they require. I placed my next order, it turned up and I have just opened it. Of the two bags, one has neither a best before date or a roasted on date. The other has no best before but a roasted on date of June 5th making it already more than 3 weeks past roast. In addition, the bag has two small holes in it. Since the owner did not bother replying to my second email, then I can only think of two scenarios. A genuine set of mistakes or he somehow mistakenly thinks he can take the pi$$ out of me. Neither scenario is acceptable, to me anyway

> @"dfk41"#p68981 In addition, the bag has two small holes in it. Name them.

@"MWJB"#p68983 - @"dfk41"#4 - I agree with Mark in this instance. I think it’s best for you to name them, or people will start making assumptions about who the roaster is by looking at your previous posts - as I had and made “educated” guesses, but there’s no way to know for sure. I think it’s best to be very clear in this case, and naming seems to be the right approach, to me at least.

I have never believed in "keeping quiet", it doesn't benefit us, or the businesses that serve us. I have worked with many companies and never stopped or restricted people making negative comments about them. I only ask people keep it factual and don't use hyperbole. You owe it to other forum members to simply name them…then they can decide whether to avoid the roaster or not. I found their reasons interesting for not including roast date on the bag, something I believe at the very least is a huge mistake. There should also always be a batch number on coffee.

@"DavecUK"#p68989 [URL=https://i.imgur.com/YPcL7bN.jpeg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/YPcL7bN.jpeg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/HQ2wyna.jpeg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/HQ2wyna.jpeg[/IMG][/URL] I did not want to come on and do a hatchet job. I have emailed them. Will update accordingly

@"dfk41"#p68990 - thanks DFK. My assumption was correct, unfortunately. 😭 It’s a shame as many in this forum seem to like them. And it would be great if they could do the job properly. Others do it, so can’t see why they can’t.

I've had loads of shite coffee recently Makes me just want to sell up and not bother

> @"Cuprajake"#p68993 I’ve had loads of shite coffee recently The truth and factual feedback is the way everything improves, including roasters. The first route to roasting better, is to have an open mind so you are able to question how you are doing things.

Yeah orrr they just fob you off🤣

I'm getting very wary of packaging as a whole, I often make small orders, so I can get coffee in 150g tins rather than bags. I had a compostible bag from Origin that was clearly always open at the side pleats at the top, Skylark's coffee came in an un coated paper, non-resealable bag.

A word of caution

MWJB

JammyDodger @JonWoo187 was presumably responding to my post which mentioned a purchase from Prodigal in a tangential conversation, not Darkwoods.

whinmoor85

dfk41 Glad to see they resolved your issue. What did they say about the lack of roast dates?

dfk41

whinmoor85 They blamed 2 things. One, their process and secondly they claimed not to sell many 500 gm bags so use 1kg bags (which they do) which predominantly sell to wholesale/trade accounts. I am not sure if that makes a difference but hey ho!

LMSC

dfk41 Not sure those reasons are convincing for me, though.

But, I am pleased the issues are resolved, you are happy with the outcome and you will continue to enjoy some good cups from Darkwoods.

Try pulling some espresso and flat white from those yellow fruits. 😀

TC mate!

MediumRoastSteam

I have ordered 1kg of the Arboretum from Darkwoods.

I ordered on Saturday, 20th of July. It arrived Tuesday, 23rd.

Wanna guess the roast Date? 3rd of July. Not impressed.

dfk41

MediumRoastSteam Complain……be interesting to compare the responses

MediumRoastSteam

dfk41 - I wrote to them last night. Let’s see what they say.

Adrianmsmith

On the plus side, at least it had the correct date on. Someone less scrupulous could have just out whatever date they wanted on. This isn’t a roaster I have tried and probably never will having read this thread but at least they seem honest from what you have said.

MWJB

Adrianmsmith Someone less scrupulous could have just out whatever date they wanted on.

Scrupulousness isn’t really a factor, there isn’t any legal requirement to have a roast date. I don’t think anyone has suggested an intention to mislead.

I’d try the coffee prior to complaining, this roaster is consuistently providing the best coffee for filter, for my part.

Regarding roast dates/resting it strikes me as a double edged sword…I’m very happy to receive coffee quickly if it is ready to brew. When I think I’m running out and want some new coffee, it’s frustrating to receive a bag then have to wait another 2-4 weeks for it to come on song, going without for another day or two whilst I make another purchase for something I can drink right away.

I’d rather the roaster rested & QC’d the coffee, releasing it when at its peak, or at least, state clearly on the product page the recommended rest time from delivery.

Adrianmsmith

MWJB I don’t think anyone has suggested an intention to mislead

If you read what I said, I was actually suggesting the opposite and saying that a less scrupulous roaster it could attempt to mislead. I wasn’t saying these were doing so.

dfk41

If you go to a supermarket to buy sausages and there are two packs left. The first runs out of date that day whilst the other has 10 days on it. They are both the same price. Which one do you buy? Dark Arts gave me excuses as to why I received coffee roasted 20 odd days earlier but did say they would look at their process. So, is this bad luck on your part, has another one slipped through or do they think their is nothing wrong with shipping out older coffee?

MWJB

dfk41 The first runs out of date that day whilst the other has 10 days on it.

Do you buy absolutely fresh beef and dry age it yourself, or buy the ‘21 day aged’ beef and cook it straight away? Likewise 12yr old whisky?

Meat has a ‘use by’, it can be dangerous to exceed this, coffee (like toothpaste) has a ‘best before’ - it will be safe consume after this date but may not be at peak aesthetic quality.

I don’t want coffee sent out to me before the roaster has had a chance to QC it & make sure I’m getting what they are advertising. I don’t want to hear, “the roast curve looks fine…” when I get a disappointing bag.

MediumRoastSteam

dfk41 , has another one slipped through or do they think their is nothing wrong with shipping out older coffee?

Got a reply. They will send a new one out, and they apologise, essentially saying that it has slipped through the net. I, however, am not convinced. I bet they just try it on… But that’s the cynical in me.

dfk41 ? Dark Arts gave me excuses as to why I received coffee roasted 20 odd days earlier

Dark Woods or Dark Arts?

MWJB how would this help assess a coffee rested for 2, 3, or 4 weeks?

I am no coffee roaster, but I doubt they cup the roast every time, or even after a few days. This is the first time a roaster has sent me coffee that is almost 3 weeks old. 1 week? I get it. 3 weeks? Sorry, but no. I bought a 1kg bag, I don’t run a coffee shop. I am a consumer. It’s unlikely that a consumer would order a 1kg bag and expect it to be ready. For me, the whole point of this is that I keep and rotate my stock as I please.

Now… If on their website they had a proper stock control and it would allow you to buy stock with different roasted on dates (with different prices) maybe that’s something. For instance, if I was planning to crack the bag open asap and drink it, I would certainly not have minded buying coffee roasted 1, maybe 2 at a push, weeks ago.

dfk41

MWJB I would be very surprised if after the initial cupping there is any further quality control other than possibly looking for stones. Mark, you have no control over what they send out. If it arrives ready to drink, great but I doubt the roasters give a fig. If you buy 21 day aged steak it still has a couple of weeks shelf life, unless you buy from a butcher. When I buy beans I want to drink then when I want, not be forced to drink bags out of rotation because a roaster has either not sold enough of or roasted too much

Chriss29

I’m sure the coffee will taste just as good however I would also be irritated as I purchase expecting to leave it for it for 7-14 days anyway, in which time I would use existing beans. So not ideal from a stock perspective.

It must be hard for roasters as I’m sure they are confident it tastes just as good and I dare say most customers are happy to accept if it’s been roasted within a month of the delivery date.

Hopefully when you get to trying them they taste great regardless and this experience doesn’t leave a bitter taste (no pun intended)

MWJB

Adrianmsmith Not sure I have ever heard of a case of anyone doing it, or it being a thing.

MWJB

dfk41 I would be very surprised if after the initial cupping there is any further quality control other than possibly looking for stones.

If they roast & post the same day, there is no cupping.

dfk41

MWJB I meant the initial cupping, not QC cupping per batch

profesor_historia

MWJB I am not sure it works like this, the cupping is supposed to be done before starting to sell the coffee, they profile it and then roast it and sell it, do you think they try every batch they roast?? It’s not like this, believe, I know a few roasters in Spain and they work on the profile before starting to roast big batches.

Adrianmsmith

I am talking blind here as I have never done any roasting but I guess the cost would go up if you expected a cupping session, scoring from every single roast

dfk41

Adrianmsmith They cup to give the initial assessments. Three months later the same bean roasted the same way might well not taste the same as it did

MWJB

Adrianmsmith I am paying high costs for coffee already, sure some of this cost comes from expensive lots to begin with, but the roaster is then adding, what 75% of the value to the coffee by the time it lands with me? I’m being sold something that is specialty/high quality at the point of leaving the grower and I have plenty of detail about that part of the chain. I would expect the roaster to ensure the quality of the product is maintained at the point it leaves them. Is it a big investment to hold back 30-50g from each batch to do this? If they don’t retain a sample from each batch, how can they troubleshoot customer queries (whether by cupping, or brewing)?

I don’t doubt some roasters do this, but it seems to me to be a minimum requirement given the specialty zeitgeist?

MWJB

dfk41 Ok, but what value would this add? Green cupping is supposed to be carried out no more than 24hrs after roasting, how would this help assess a coffee rested for 2, 3, or 4 weeks?

dfk41

MWJB I think we are straying! I accept that you do not mind beans arriving ready to drink. I like to age mine in my own time. The word ‘fresh’ does not exist in the world of Trading Standards but I have a quaint image that some roasters (like Coffee Compass) roasts to order mainly. This means that the beans arrive within a couple of days of roasting. I think it is the perception of what you are buying.

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