Can omni roasts really serve their intended purpose? Or do they just serve the roaster? 🤔

@"MWJB"#p71518 I don’t see many roasters doing other than omni where I live. What’s it like for you?

Is that because it's not really a thing?

@"JimmyP"#p71519 Off the top of my head, Square Mile (currently drinking their Kenya Kainamui), Blossom, Workshop, Roundhill do 'filter' roasts, though filter roasts seem to have largely got darker in recent years. Kiss the Hippo also do their 'Bright & Vibrant' range…which sometimes lack brightness/vibrancy. Omni roasting, to my perception, is roasting the coffee darker than ideal for filter, so folks can get a reasonable result at shorter espresso ratios. That said, I'm quite happy with filter/light roasts at longer ratios as espresso, I don't need short, gloopy shots if it's at the expense of a roastier bean.

Other than changing how dark they roast what else changes. Which beans should never be used in an espresso machine….. Other than broad, black, baked etc!

thats the roasters interpretation, go under and its disgusting, like wise you can scorch and it still be under done. best of roasting the bean to its full potential and brew it how you want, most the beans i get are filter roast, through an espresso machine

> @"JimmyP"#p71517 Can omni roasts really serve their intended purpose? Or do they just serve the roaster? They serve the roaster, allowing them a broader customer base.

> @"Adrianmsmith"#p71526 Which beans should never be used in an espresso machine….. Any nominally roasted bean can go into an espresso machine, light/med/dark, depending on your preference. Light filter roasts are more likely to have very high perceived acidity at typical espresso ratios and concentrations (1:2, 1:3 etc.). But pull them longer & weaker and they can be tamed, say 1:4 to 1:6? They won't really stand up to milk & a lot of folk don't feel like it's 'real' espresso at that kind of concentration & lack of mouthfeel. Darker roasts stand up better to short ratios and this helps lift the perceived acidity, which would be flat/generic if say brewed as drip. Note when I talk about increased perceived acidity, I'm talking about something relevant to espresso at normal extraction levels, I'm not attributing it to low extractions.

What does an 'omni' roast actually mean? Whilst lighter roasts excel with pour over, they can be a challenge when brewing espresso. So does that mean omni roasting takes the roast profile past the optimum for a lighter roast in order to tame the acidic notes when using same beans for espresso? Personally, I am not convinced. I prefer to buy beans that are optimally roasted for pour over which means a lighter roast. If I want zero acidity in the cup espresso-wise, I'd opt for a roast profile optimised for that. That doesn't mean you can't brew espresso with lighter roasts but you have to make compromises chief of which is body. In order to tame acidity when pulling shots from lighter roasts, you invariably need to pull longer - 1:2.5 or higher. That way, the acidic notes are muted but that doesn't mean they go away entirely but you won't have a lot of mouth feel/body in the cup. If your machine allows you to alter espresso brew temp, you can set the temp higher than would normally be used for darker roasts. Higher temps help pull more solubles from the beans. In short, you can good shots from lighter roasts and in that I include Kenyan beans which are highly acidic. Another elephant in the corner is development which is much more of an issue when roasting light. Under development means poor roasting and under developed beans are not going to provide good espresso no matter how good your technique is. Always a good idea when looking at lighter roasts is to crack open a bean or two and see how even the colouring is inside.

> @"Systemic"#p71535 Under development means poor roasting and under developed beans are not going to provide good espresso no matter how good your technique is. Under developed roasted beans aren't going to great for filter though either, usually lacking in sweetness/acidity and with savoury/umami notes.

Omni roasts

Cuprajake

didnt rate the onxy i had at all

InfamousTuba

I really like the greens onyx choose but I always find their roasts too dark for my taste. I am interested in the new onyx Europe stuff that they are roasting with Manhattan coffee roasters, I have heard good things about the samples people have received but I am still hesitant about it

StellarGreg

InfamousTuba

Hey I wasn’t aware that different meters gave reading on different scales! Hiow un-scientific! It just shows the fragmented nature of the Coffee Bean market! They don’t seem to WANT you to know the real roast level, becuase they are mostly aiming at an “average” that will suit “most customers”. But if they put the real data deal on the pack, they are afraid that they will have fewer customers buying their “One-Size-Fits-All-Compromise Roast”…

What the hell - whatever equipment they use, and whatever scale they have access to, it would be better than having no verifiable FACT BASED information on Roast Level!!!! (Just tell us which scale as well.)

For a customer such as me, who doesn’t like the “Average-Compromise-Mediocre” Roast, and definately doesn’t want any of the “Light” Roasts, all they can give us is an “Italian” Roast - which is too far that way for me…

It’s so difficult currently for those of us who want a “Well Roasted” Bean, but not an incinerated one!!!
The members of the “Specialty Coffee” Movement, just can’t tell the difference between these!

To have accurate information about Roast Level, is particularly important for De-Caff, since the colour difference between roast levels is much less for De-Caff.
Also I’ve yet to find a Coffee suppier that gives you a choice of Roast Level for De-Caff…….

InfamousTuba

StellarGreg

Coffee isn’t really as scientific as people think it is, even some of the supposed ‘science’ that comes out is not repeatable or actually useful. And the bottom line is that taste is subjective, what you enjoy might not be what someone else enjoys, roasters generally roast to their specific tastes and preferences

Some of these meters can be changed to give out agtron readings but because the data is used internally I don’t think roasters bother to do that. Same with calibration between devices, we have 2 colour meters that are the same model and they don’t give exactly the same reading because of how sensitive the equipment is

Adrianmsmith

These 2 are identical. Purchased 2 weeks apart. Must admit they are closer on the photo than they were in real life. “Both are within parameters”

How would the 10k£ meter grade them 😎☕

StellarGreg

InfamousTuba
Hi. I think most people who frequent here are well aware that Roast Level is only one of a whole variety of variables in what makes a coffee taste “just so”. But Roast Level WILL make or BREAK absolutely any of the other variables.

You’re clearly “in the industry” ao stop making excuses that deny your customers the infomation they need so as not to contiunally WASTE THEIR MONEY on beans that would never be to their taste.

If you can’t be “bothered” to make that “internal” information available to your paying customers, then the LAW is the only way to FORCE YOU TO DO SO!

I’m fed up with paying for and having to throw away under roasted beans!

Customers have different tastes. That’s why we NEED the TRUTHFUL Roast Level on every pack!
Just like we also need the Roasting Date… And many other details, that producers choose to deny us

Cuprajake

exactly we have two spectros at work to match colours and both lenses give slighly different readings,

imo its just people getting way to anal about it,

most of us on here are at the level and have the equipment that we can all make great coffee,

InfamousTuba

StellarGreg

I know people on this forum are well aware, but most people who buy coffee are not on this forum. I have been on this forum and it’s previous iteration for several years since before i was in “the industry” and I try and give input from the industry because I think it is useful for people to know that side of it and not just speculate

I didn’t say we don’t make this internal information public (we already do in some form have roast level from the agtron number), I was talking about the industry as a whole because I know a lot of roasteries and how they operate and why they do things a certain way. Roasters should make more of an effort to show their roast level and the colour range their coffees span

I think you are missing the part that I agree with you that roast level should be on the packaging along with roast date, batch number etc. But the industry as a whole is slow to change and unless people ask roasteries to do this they won’t change

StellarGreg

InfamousTuba
“we already do in some form have roast level from the agtron number”
Note how vague that is. We don’t need the Agtron number being “filtered” to us via some graphic or “word description”. We Need the ACTUAL Agtron number - or equivalent!

“Roasters should make more of an effort to show their roast level”.
NO - NO - NO - They should not make more of an effort to do so, They should Blxxxy Wxxl do so! Just give us the Agtron number already!!!

I thihk you’ve missed the point. Agtron numbers - or their equivalent are what is REQUIRED!

I’m a UK expat, living in Spain. One of the local Spanish Roasteries (of Specialty kind), described almost all their Beans as of 4 out of 5 for Roast Level. So I tried some. I had to throw away virtually all the beans, since I would designate them as AT MAXIMUM 2 out of 5, or 3 out of 10. A simple Agtron number would instantly REVEAL these kind of lies perpetrated primarilly by the “Specialty” people.

What they clearly MEANT was:-

“These coffees are around 4 out of 5 - if you designate 5 as the maximum that we would consider drinking ourselves…”

Finally I come back to what I said earlier. The only reason that Roasters DON’T WANT TO TELL US THE REAL HONEST ROAST LEVEL, is that we wouldn’t buy their beans if they did!

"Goodness Gracious Great Balls of Fire - If we had to declare the Agtron number for each and every batch on the label, if we then had a “dud” batch, we wouldn’t be able to sell it. (We want to sell you everything, including any dud batches!)"

For those of you who don’t know, the timing between the various levels of Roast, are quite/very/extremely short!
If the Roaster blinks, it may end up “undrinkable”.

Then again, if the Roaster offered a greater variety of Roast Levels, then a batch that was accidentally Roasted too long could be sold as the next Roast grade up… But Roasters aren’t about giving us choice are they!

“Omni Roast” - my very big foot! This very word is insulting to the customer, in considering that our personal tastes can be totally ignored, and what we are given instead, is WHAT THE ROASTER WANTS TO GIVE US!
- - -

Neither do I care too much about the innacuracies of current Colour measuring gear. An inaccurate machine is FAR FAR FAR better than a lying Roasters equivocating words!

Adrianmsmith

@InfamousTuba

It would be good if

“you guys from the industry” had some kind of

“do you know who i am” in your signature to differentiate you from mere mortals and hobbyists who have no clue who you are! Would help to know your comments are from someone informed (or selling something) as compared to speculative and uninformed answers from people to whom its just a hobby.

InfamousTuba

Adrianmsmith I mean I can add it to my signature that I roast coffee as a job if you would like. I am definitely not selling anything, never have. I don’t particularly want people to know who I am or where I work, the anonymity allows me to give truthful answers and advice. I’m definitely not better than anyone else and I wouldn’t ever claim to be

I’m always open to discuss things and share as much information as I can. But mainly to learn new things, that’s why I am on a coffee forum

Cuprajake

its a non commercial forum, but that would be good,

Adrianmsmith

InfamousTuba

Wasnt insinuating about the selling bit, aimed at you, as i dont know who you are, really 😚!! But it would help to know, that advice or a suggestion was informed from a professional and hopefully suggest a trusted answer as opposed to guess…..

For me, other than i like to drink coffee i have no connection to the industry, not even a loose one and assume all to be the same .

Obviously this isnt facebook and in general suggestions and answers to anything are usually factually correct at least - from everyone present!!

Adrianmsmith

StellarGreg

Do roasters really need to spend 10k on a colour analyser to give a score of

1,2,3,4,5 from light to dark which is all most seem to do! And correctly done, all we really need..

Just a correct 1,2,3,4 or 5 would do for me! Call it whatever fancy name you want!

A nice/ 1kg correctly described as 3 will do for me most times. And a small bag of something different to try .

Rocket science sounds easier than what some of you want 🤭😚

Cuprajake

My god is it that big of a deal.

Find a roaster you like stick with them,

There’s to many variables in the trade, then the cost of the equipment

Everyone raves over onxy - I got mouldy beans, they gave no fucks and sent me on my way,

It is what it is, this forum is generally a quite civilised place and so far your initial posts have been quite argumentative and self righteous.

Just another to go on the ignore list.

Why does everyone have to be right all the time

StellarGreg

Cuprajake

Actually I’m speaking out against a “Status Quo” that wants to force uniformity upon us all. I’m offering the (strong) view that a variety of oppinions and tastes are the real world!

If you don’t like “being wrong”, then the best approach is not to put someone on your list of people to ignore, but to do more reaearch, and to listen MORE, not less!

JimmyP

Cuprajake Which is the roaster that you have stuck with?

StellarGreg

Cuprajake
Actually Cuprajake, your contribution is interesting because it’s almost completely the reverse of the truth.

Yes, my expressed opinions are strong. Is that wrong? If everybody agreed then there wouldn’t be much point in dicussing anything…

The opinions I speak out against are “entrenched”. The Specialty part of the industry seeks to impose it’s views upon everybody else!! I can’t speak out against that, EXCEPT by appearing “argumentative”!

If those of us who prefer Dark Roasts can’t speak out, then “Omni-Roasts” are gonna get forced on us by the industry - because they’re more profitable…

However if you read my actual posts, (rather than what you’ve SAID about me), you will find that I’ve used the word “perhaps” FREQUENTLY. Not only that, my contributions ASSUME a variety of opinions in every case! In several instances I’ve actaully said “I don’t know”! and “I trust your opinion on that”!

And what about YOUR contributions in our small discussion?

Where I presented some useful information to help another user to maek a decision about Burrs for the VS3. To give them “another point of view” to consider. Another option.

YOU had to find fault with it, by presenting the data in a different way. “Cumulative” rather than “Straight Data”.

I pointed out, that in fact the “cumulative presentation”, (while I don’t like it), would have been better “in reverse” for Espresso, since Fines are GOOD for Espresso. You didn’t like that, or any other of my replies to you.

It seems, that you are one of those Forum people, who likes to “Put Down Newbies”, who feels that your status can only be enhanced by attempting to make others grovel.

It seems that it is YOU who is the person “who always wants to be right.” The problem with that is that you aren’t very often…

And that’s because you don’t listen to others, and you probably havn’t done enough research and learning.

The folders on my PC that contain all my Coffee research amount to 85.4 Gigabytes. How about yours?

I’m no newby - in age, in knowledge, in experience with Coffee, in presenting my opinions to others, in creating graphical presentations of data or designs…

Have a good day Cuprajake.

Cuprajake

What ever you want..

MWJB

Adrianmsmith Agtron. Lightells, Tonino etc., give an objective score…which you then correlate to your subjective preference…like every other thing you do when making coffee (weights, temp, ratio, grind setting, etc.). The Agtron analyser is a bit more involved than a colour chart, but for those who want a cheaper alternative, they also colour tiles much cheaper.

Agtron was first in the game of those mentioned (1993) and standard & gourmet scales adopted by the specialty industry/SCAA.

Either way, I don’t see that £10k on equipment when setting up a commercial coffee roastery is that big of a deal, given the total outlay.

But for the record, I agree with you & am generally happy with a 5 point scale and I make notes based on my perception of this scale, but I’m just not always sure my ‘1’/light is the same as some other people’s.

StellarGreg

Adrianmsmith
Hi Adrian.

If the Roasters that you use provide a reliable and truthful 1 to 5 for Roast Level, then you are LUCKY!

This seems to be a very contentious issue, and many Roasters are refusing to put any guide of Roast Level on their packet.

Others give a guide which is deliberately “Personal to their Opinions” about this Contentious topic! As is the case with A Spanish Roasters that I tried, whose “5” corresponded not with “Full City”, or “French”, or “Italian”, but whose “5” corresponded with the maximum that they would consider roasting at - around “2” or “3” for anybody else…

Some would consider such an approach to be PURE LIES……….

This is a very contentious topic, and I have been criticised here for daring to express a non “Specialty” opinion!!!

To prevent the lies and the dis-information, the deliberate LACK of Information, and the simple profiteering, on what some Roasters must KNOW will disappoint their cutomers, I think “YES - YES - YES” they must be forced to spend whatever it takes to provide their customers with useful and unprejudiced information about the Product they are selling!

JimmyP

Adrianmsmith My understanding is that there are different ways to achieve the same colour. Different roasting profiles that produce different flavours. Despite the same colour 🙂👍

StellarGreg

MWJB
“Either way, I don’t see that £10k on equipment when setting up a commercial coffee roastery is that big of a deal, given the total outlay.”

I totally agree with this!

I would prefer a ten point scale.

My personal preference would come out as “4” on a 5 point scale, but at “7” or “8” on a ten point scale. This would be much more useful to me, since the timing difference between that “7” or “8” in the Roastery is so few seconds!!

I drink only Espresso, out of preference, and my Grinders - Varia VS3, Kinu M47 and 1Zpresso J-Ultra (arriving today!) all give me great granularity about the size of particles for my brew. The one other factor that I NEED granularity, is the Roast level. “4 out of 5” is just too vague, at least at THIS end of the scale.

Sure, the Roasters dont want to give us such granularity about the Roast Level, since it makes things more difficult for them. They will have to be more careful, so as not to get too many batches that would fail a check on any Roast Level Declaration.

But surely if they are selling a product to the public, we are entitled to expect them to be PROFESSIONAL! No?

- - -

Perhaps the “Omni-Roasts” of the title of this thread, would be possible at the low end of the scale?? Some people seem to think so. However I do know that such an “Omni-Roast” would CERTAINLY not satisfy someone who likes Darker Roasts!!!

I thihk it is possible that less granularity is required at the low end of the scale?? I don’t know… You tell me! Since I don’t drink those beans… (I throw them in the bin!)

DavecUK

StellarGreg If the Roasters that you use provide a reliable and truthful 1 to 5 for Roast Level, then you are LUCKY!

This seems to be a very contentious issue, and many Roasters are refusing to put any guide of Roast Level on their packet.

Others give a guide which is deliberately “Personal to their Opinions” about this Contentious topic! As is the case with A Spanish Roasters that I tried, whose “5” corresponded not with “Full City”, or “French”, or “Italian”, but whose “5” corresponded with the maximum that they would consider roasting at - around “2” or “3” for anybody else…

I have suggested to many roasters, both ones I have trained and others about a fairly easy method to deal with this. However it seems to have been universally ignored as it’s either too much trouble, or perhaps they simply don’t “get it”.

When you get your coffee there is a box and in that box is the coffee, and usually a bit of advertising bumf, free gift, taster pack whatever. My solution be to add a business card with a 10 point coloured block scale light to very dark brown, each block numbered.

As the card will be printed professionally to a proper pantone spec, it’s then an easy job to keep one by the roasters, match the colour level and describe the coffee roast level (based on external colour) by a number. You at home have a card and when purchasing you can look at your card and see what roast level visually that number refers to (without the differences in computer screen renditions).

e.g. hopefully enough to get the idea.

Adrianmsmith

StellarGreg

Oh no. Why did you order the J ultra. I just sold mine this week as i also had the Kinu M47, which is just on the “better” side!! Have the pour over burr as well but not tried that!!

10 points would be better than 5 used properly…..

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