Lelit Elizabeth V3 back to back shot problem

Juggle_Josh

So I’m having an issue with my machine pulling back to back shots, where the second shot is always running faster. I’ve tried swapping over the shots so the first to be ground is pulled second but that made no difference.

I reached out to Lelit who recommended waiting a full 2 minutes between shots but it made no difference. I filmed a video with the 2 minute gaps but again they were unable to suggest what could be going wrong. I appreciated their help nonetheless.

Video: https://youtu.be/9gDQTBWxC5c?si=mVaUQdfuSsYia4Vr

Since then I’ve tried leaving my machine on for 30mins before using to see if it’s a heat up stability issue but it’s made no difference.

Any help would be amazing at this point, thanks so much!

DavecUK

Juggle_Josh There’s seems to be nothing wrong with the machine that I can see or hear? The grinder can only grind or not grind, it has no way of knowing which is the 1st or second shot.

Something you can try

Grind 2 shots worth in to separate containers
fill the portafilter with the second grind and pull the shot
then fairly quickly dry and refill the portafilter and do the second shot

What happens?

Does it always always do the 2nd shot faster with all coffees.

What’s your coffee dose weight?
do you use scales to weight the dose of coffee
How do you tamp, do you tamp very hard?
You’re grind looks too loose for 18 or even a 16g shot, it needs to be tightened up a little
That looks like a Niche zero is that correct?

Juggle_Josh

DavecUK

wow thanks for the fast response and help.

I’ll try what you suggested and report back.

To answer some of those questions

Does it always always do the 2nd shot faster with all coffees? Yes, seems to happen with all coffees and I use a lot of different coffees.
What’s your coffee dose weight? 18g
do you use scales to weight the dose of coffee? yup both before and after grinding
How do you tamp, do you tamp very hard? I have a (normcore) spring loaded tamper so believe I can’t go past a certain amount of pressure. I thought you couldn’t really tamp too hard though? 😅
You’re grind looks too loose for 18 or even a 16g shot, it needs to be tightened up a little Can you clarify what you mean by loose?
That looks like a Niche zero is that correct? Correct!

drdre89

DavecUK The grinder can only grind or not grind, it has no way of knowing which is the 1st or second shot.

Until the new “AI” grinders come out …

DavecUK

Juggle_Josh How do you tamp, do you tamp very hard? I have a (normcore) spring loaded tamper so believe I can’t go past a certain amount of pressure. I thought you couldn’t really tamp too hard though? 😅

You’re grind looks too loose for 18 or even a 16g shot, it needs to be tightened up a little Can you clarify what you mean by loose?

Well some people try and jump on the tamper

You need a finer grind

Watch my video on tamping (the issues I talk about are made even worse by overly hard tamping)

Inspector

When machine heats up or about to heat up (after around 15-20mins) put a blind filter and back flush it three times. When temp stabilized, start brewing.

It will fix the issue.

Mine does same. Back flushing somehow stabilizes bar pressure on the gauge. It starts with almost 10.5bar then end of the back flushing process it drops to 9.5 and stays there.

It’s something to do with the old opv I guess. I don’t know if the newer version behaves similar as I haven’t installed the one Bella barista sent me yet.

Juggle_Josh

Inspector

Wow thanks I’ll give this a go!

When you say 3 times? You mean 3 rounds of the pre set multiple cycles or three little back flushes? Hopefully that makes sense? Thanks so much I think this may finally fix my issue? Who knows I’ve tried so much at this point 😂

Do you think I should try and get a new opv?

MediumRoastSteam

I had a Profitec 700 back in the day and it did exactly the same - that’s an E61, Rotary pump machine.

I don’t do back to back shots so for me the problem doesn’t manifest itself if there is one.

If you do a quick Google with the words used in this thread, you’ll find this happens in other machines too.

MediumRoastSteam

I don’t understand how “a finer grind” will solve the problem here.

OP says that first shot runs ok; subsequent shot runs faster by 8 seconds or so (can’t remember exactly). Op says the behaviour is consistent.

OP mentions the use of a calibrated, spring loaded tamper.

How will grinding finer solve the issue?

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam How will grinding finer solve the issue?

the other issue of the overly fast shot

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK - I understand. But the first shot is always right - with the same grind. So if OP tightens the grind… the first shot in the session will run significantly slower. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding something here.

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam I understand. But the first shot is always right - with the same grind. So if OP tightens the grind… the first shot in the session will run significantly slower. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding something here.

I thought the 1st shot was too fast

drdre89

Could be the OPV overshooting on the second shot. Which is the problem I used to have when I had the Elizabeth.

Op. Have a look at the pressure gauge to see if does anything weird and overshoot

MediumRoastSteam

drdre89 - this is similar to what was said in this post:

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/3035-lelit-elizabeth-v3-back-to-back-shot-problem/4

Juggle_Josh

drdre89

DavecUK

Sorry for confusion, yes the first shot is slower and subsequent ones are faster. Thanks

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK - it’s the other way round. Other people had similar experiences too. See opening post + videos. 😊

Waitforme

If I’m having a couple of shots and prep and pour the first one , prep the second one and stick the portafilter in the group head ready to pour, I get a gusher 10 mins later when I pour it, hence stopped doing it.

Inspector

Juggle_Josh

You can put blind basket and press only brew button and run machine about 8-10 seconds, stop, then do a quick back flush via pressing 1st and second button, that should do it too. I normally do three back flushes via pressing 1st and 2nd button.

Important thing is that machine comes up to pressure and stabilise somehow.

Let us know how you get on please.

dfk41

Juggle_Josh Can I ask you a daft question? The second shot. Is there a delay at all between you loading then engaging the pf and pulling the shot? In other words do you load and lock and pull, or for example load and lock, then grab your milk jug and spend a few seconds putting milk in?

Juggle_Josh

dfk41

With both shots I pretty much pull the shot straight away after it’s in the portafilter

Juggle_Josh

Inspector

Great, thanks I’ll try this today and let you know.

Juggle_Josh

Inspector

Ok so I have done 2 tests today and seems like the problem is still there :(

Test 1
prep machine: 30 min warm up time then a 10 second shot into a blind basket followed by 3 back flushes. I’ve then waited for temp to return to normal.

shot 1: 25.6g out in 33 seconds

shot 2: 30g out in 33 seconds

(I left the machine to cool down for a few hours then went again…)

Test 2
prep machine: 30 min warm up time then a 10 second shot into a blind basket followed by 3 back flushes. I’ve then waited for temp to return to normal.

shot 1: 30.9g out in 33 seconds

shot 2: 39.2g out in 33 seconds

The pressure gauge didn’t seem much different but maybe I should look closer at it while the shot is pulling?

it’s also interesting how shot 1 on the second test matched shot 2 from the first test, not sure what on earth is going on there…

Thanks again!