It strikes me that there’s plenty of chaps here that are confident talking about equipment, but tend to shy away from discussing the flavour of coffee and their ability to taste it. Any thoughts? 🤔

@"JimmyP"#p73950 Well, people here tend to make their own coffee beverage, rather than buy it (like you might a pack of cheese & onion crisps), so you also need to consider (as well as a higher interest in gear/technique, over Oz Clarke style taste reviews) that some people's ability to taste what they make is fine and that: a) There may be a malfunction in the making of the drink getting in the way of its presentation. b) They may prefer it with additions like milk, sugar. c) The notes supplied by the roaster may be tenuous/overly specific (I've never eaten a lingonberry, nor tasted an orange blossom). Some people seem to see specific notes as a little pretentious (not just in coffee, I've seen it with respect to beer & whisky too). For me personally, how nice the coffee is overall trumps whether supplied notes are tangible, but it's a bonus when it all comes together (at least one or two of the notes mentioned are detectable). Non coffee nerds that I make coffee for, talk of a lack of expected 'bitterness, wine like, fruit, nice', etc.

First, one needs a sensitive palate to pick and differentiate the fine nuisances of flavours and aromas. A lack of it can be a challenge. Second , how accurate are the descriptions on the bag? Third, merely writing papaya, peach, nectarine, pears, jasmine does not help. We appreciate those roasters who write a few lines of their experiences of what their coffee taste like when they cupped them? This is very important than a mere customary noting of notes. Except a few, this is largely absent even amongst those who sell coffee bags in the north of £80. I don’t expect to find more than one or two (if at all) on a bag. Fourth, I try to keep the notes simple. I have a sensitive palate. I brew and see what aromas and flavour I can find - grinding to drinking. The coffee flavours change as it cools. A gentle to moderate smooth fruity acidity for me is characteristics of stone fruits, pears or grapes. Lemon, tea, winey and florals can have a slight enjoyable tart dry edge at the finish. Berries typically have an elevated acidity, which I love. They can be easily mistaken for a sour cup. I avoid coffee which have caramel, cocoa and chocolate notes as I drink black only. Like Grapefruit, they (especially cocoa and dark chocolate) can be difficult to delineate if they are notes or a brew malfunction. These also spoil my nice black coffee. 😊 Fifth, notes on espressos are a different class altogether as scope for a brew malfunction is greater than on a filter. For me, it is very difficult to pick the notes on the thick concentrated liquid. One needs to dilute them to release the notes, IMO. I don’t tend to identify the notes on espressos, unless I dilute them which I do often. Finally, I have drunk a lot of coffee which are thoroughly enjoyable even if I could not identify any notes. Notes are just a confirmation that we got the brews right.

A few things ive picked up that are mostly wrong and spouted on facebook, youtube, reddit and coffee forums by people who think espresso can only be enjoyed as a straight shot . All milk based drinks are the same taste and have to be made with dark roast beans with added robusta. Absolute bill hooks Milk based drinks cant be enjoyed with medium or medium light beans 🤬🤐 People who drink espresso based milk drinks may as well use instant coffee. 😡😠👺🗯️ Any grinder will do for milk drinks as you need lots of fines to enjoy it 🤬😂😡😠👺 Well, lets just say i prefer to think a lot of experts and influencers are sadly Wrong at best. Its probably better to talk about equipment!!

My preferences seem to change with the seasons. I prefer lighter more fruity / acidic coffee in the summer and warmer months and tend to drink more pour overs. During the dark cold winter months I prefer espresso based milk drinks so opt for thicker , heavier mouthfeel & flavours.

> @"Adrianmsmith"#p73954 Its probably better to talk about equipment!! Isn't the purpose of using specific equipment to steer the flavour profile?

I can only laugh at the time/money some spend in their pursuit of the hyped next best thing. Once a decent level of equipment is reached you're just pissing in the wind trying to get much more than .5% perceived improvement. By far the most important variable is the coffee being used. I have a very capable machine/grinder setup that gives me exactly what I prefer with straight espresso, main focus is on green selection/roast development. That will deliver by far more results in the demitasse than all equipment changes made regardless of price spent. Also don't buy into the 'supertaster' bull**** as we all have different levels of taste/aroma perception. None is better than the rest, just different. Hilarious when some mention they aren't on a 'professional/expert' level when discussing their findings on coffee, equipment, etc. Only difference between professional and amateur status is the pro gets paid to do it, definitely means nothing in the way of actual skill/knowledge on a given subject.

@"MWJB"#p73960 I would argue it's about getting "better" coffee based on whichever metric you may wish to use to measure that! There's also the functional side of how things work, do they make your life easier or more repeatable. Workflow, ease of use etc not to mention sometimes just wanting something pretty or well made. We might try to tell ourselves that we're chasing marginal gains but I think a lot of us enjoy the hobby and like to experiment with no specific purpose or expected outcomes.

> @"JonWoo187"#p73964 Also don’t buy into the ‘supertaster’ bull\*\*\* Yeh, the thing is you will never have the same taste as them no matter what words you use to describe that taste . And theres no memory function in the human brain to recall an exact taste from yesterday or last week, just perception and or bull 5h1t. If it were possible to split a shot in to 5 and somehow freeze it in time, i don't think it would taste the same 5 days running as my, your, our mouth won't be in exactly the same state 5 days running. And im talking my morning coffee in my kitchen, not some laboratory experiment under laboratory controlled conditions. As for equipment "upgrades", i, for one change equipment as much to see how different equipment works and how different theories follow through than to make "better" coffee. "Better" is very difficult to describe or even define. After all were not talking black / white, good / bad, were talking slight differences at the level of equipment usually discussed on this forum.

I think the tasting notes on the bag are needed to encourage people to buy it and to know roughly what to expect? There may well me a lot of poetic license but the flavour descriptors draw me in every time, I’m a sucker for anything exotic sounding even if I haven’t a clue what it tastes like.

A lot of defensive comments here 🤔

Where’s your palate at?

JimmyP

dfk41 Congratulations for the most nonsense I’ve read so far 🙂👍

dfk41

JimmyP Is that a bit like saying, if you do not agree with everything that I say then you are misguided? Personally, I wonder what you get out of this forum apart from the obvious delight of trolling.

JimmyP

JonWoo187 Everyone can improve their palate. Why so defensive? 🤔

JonWoo187

JimmyP Claims of improvement is overrated as I’ve consumed more espresso than most enthusiasts likely ever will and know exactly what I prefer without feeling the need to ‘train’ anything. You seem to have this mindset that the mind/senses can be forced to stray from what it knows and we are somehow missing out if we don’t buy into that.

JimmyP

dfk41 How’s your palate? What efforts are you making to expand it?
Serious question. Anyone who knows me will understand that I’m passionate about this stuff and not trolling 🙂

JimmyP

MWJB I would argue that a cupping session is a great way for coffee enthusiasts to expand their palate. Right now I suspect you’re guilty of trying to hide behind lame words.

MWJB

JimmyP Ad hominem remark - I’ve made no assumptions/suppositions about your intent, nor abilities.

If you know something we don’t, don’t be coy, convey your experiences in the spirit of sharing. Ask yourself, if you genuinely have revelations to share, is your attitude winning people over?

Words are the currency of an internet forum, unless you can deliver a cupping via my USB port?

Cupping is a great way to get a snapshot/polaroid pic of one, or especially a group of coffees, in real time comparison - ideal when deciding what green coffee to buy/looking for defects. But, generally, it leads to under-extracted coffee (easily overcome with percolation brewing, or some filtered extractions). It also limits how much beverage you can get from a dose before you start stirring up silt (which can get in the way of tasting by coating the tongue) which I find a little wasteful when buying expensive coffee & unsatisfying compared to drinking a whole, clean, cup of coffee. If you have the equipment to make coffee and the experience to be confident in what you are doing when buying production roasts, you don’t need to cup. I base this assertion on about a thousand brews (a mix of cuppings and unfiltered immersions like FP & Sowden) and over 3.000 percolation & filtered immersions.

You may prefer unfiltered immersions, if so, good for you, but for me I only do them in certain circumstances.

JimmyP

MWJB Tldr. People like you need to learn to address the issue raised. Rather than waffling about stuff 🙂👍

LMSC

JimmyP People like you need to learn to address the issue raised.

This forum is full of folks who are always looking to go an extra notch to get the best out of their coffees

Please start a dedicated thread or two and share your experiences and knowledge. I am sure members will benefit from your rich experience. 😊

JimmyP

LMSC Great suggestion buddy. I will give it some thought! 🙂👍

Cuprajake

Gone for a walk, as I have managed flu

dfk41

JonWoo187 Personally, I drink the coffee I like. I have spent shed loads on the finest single origin beans, in pursuit of those delicate notes promised on the packaging…..wasted money in my case! I like medium darker beans. I drink them as espresso (sometimes), americano with a smallish amount of water and as cappuccino using the third, third, third recipe. That is what I enjoy and subsequently that is what I drink.I have had and still do have cupboards full of brew coffee equipment.

So @JimmyP how would you propose to educate my palate exactly please? You could make some instructional videos if that helps as a picture paints a thousand words. I wait with baited breath.

JimmyP

JonWoo187 Having been paid as a taster for my excellent palate and received training to improve it further I would say you’re wrong there 🙂

JimmyP

dfk41 Nah, you’re not looking to learn. It’s obvious from your tone 🫤

dfk41

JimmyP Nah, you’re not looking to learn. It’s obvious from your tone 🫤

Wrong, it is not that I have no desire to learn, it is just I have no desire to learn from a dickhead

JonWoo187

JimmyP Folger’s doesn’t cut it, but you do you. I gladly laugh at the mere mention of ‘being trained’ as that’s simply being led to believe what others think is better/different as in being their trained bitch. I taste exactly what I do from my dialed in setup with coffees I choose to roast. My home, my setup, my roaster gives my palate what I prefer and what others choose to pursue makes absolutely no difference in my world.

JimmyP

dfk41 Thank you for proving my point. Bad attitude bro and you could have learnt a lot 🫤

MWJB

JimmyP He still might, as might the rest of us if you post something useful.

JimmyP

MWJB The problem from my point of view is that you’ve only shown yourselves as resistant to learning 🤔

MWJB

JimmyP I have said that I don’t think, cupping specifically (a vague term in reality, if a very specific term in terms of a diagnostic exercise) will help. I have been trying to assist @dfk41 in his search for a different perspective on coffee since before this forum existed. I am as keen as anyone to see if he is able to adjust his appreciation of coffee beyond his catchphrase of, “sink it, or drink it”. I have no agenda in terms of convincing him he is ‘wrong’ in any way, because even (I think) if he is, such an attitude will, quite understandably, result in vociferous resistance, as it is condescending and patronising.

You say you are a, “paid taster” I don’t doubt this, but I do doubt that you are a paid coffee brewer & a paid coffee taster (because everyone who tastes coffee in the course of a day at work is usually one, or the other, but almost never both).

if you are paid to present coffee cuppings, tell us what your protocol is, in detail (e.g. how you ensure the SCAA/Agtron requirements).

If you are a paid taster, tell us what the pre-made coffee beverage is that we can purchase widely, taste with you & compare notes/perceptions.

Are you going to partake in Hoffmann’s decaf tasting event? (Both myself & @dfk41 are.)

Basically, give us something tangible before we all run out of patience with your attitude.

JimmyP

MWJB You’re so full of shit. I don’t even read most of your comment now 😅👍

MWJB

JimmyP @DavecUK ban this troublemaker please.

DavecUK

JimmyP I’ve searched and forgive me if I missed it, but I don’t see any posts where you have shared your experiences of how to taste more in your coffee? You have critiqued everybody else’s comments but contributed little in the way of knowledge.

If you can actually “help” people that’s a primary focus of this forum and the main reason I am here.

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