It strikes me that there’s plenty of chaps here that are confident talking about equipment, but tend to shy away from discussing the flavour of coffee and their ability to taste it. Any thoughts? 🤔

@"JimmyP"#p73950 Well, people here tend to make their own coffee beverage, rather than buy it (like you might a pack of cheese & onion crisps), so you also need to consider (as well as a higher interest in gear/technique, over Oz Clarke style taste reviews) that some people's ability to taste what they make is fine and that: a) There may be a malfunction in the making of the drink getting in the way of its presentation. b) They may prefer it with additions like milk, sugar. c) The notes supplied by the roaster may be tenuous/overly specific (I've never eaten a lingonberry, nor tasted an orange blossom). Some people seem to see specific notes as a little pretentious (not just in coffee, I've seen it with respect to beer & whisky too). For me personally, how nice the coffee is overall trumps whether supplied notes are tangible, but it's a bonus when it all comes together (at least one or two of the notes mentioned are detectable). Non coffee nerds that I make coffee for, talk of a lack of expected 'bitterness, wine like, fruit, nice', etc.

First, one needs a sensitive palate to pick and differentiate the fine nuisances of flavours and aromas. A lack of it can be a challenge. Second , how accurate are the descriptions on the bag? Third, merely writing papaya, peach, nectarine, pears, jasmine does not help. We appreciate those roasters who write a few lines of their experiences of what their coffee taste like when they cupped them? This is very important than a mere customary noting of notes. Except a few, this is largely absent even amongst those who sell coffee bags in the north of £80. I don’t expect to find more than one or two (if at all) on a bag. Fourth, I try to keep the notes simple. I have a sensitive palate. I brew and see what aromas and flavour I can find - grinding to drinking. The coffee flavours change as it cools. A gentle to moderate smooth fruity acidity for me is characteristics of stone fruits, pears or grapes. Lemon, tea, winey and florals can have a slight enjoyable tart dry edge at the finish. Berries typically have an elevated acidity, which I love. They can be easily mistaken for a sour cup. I avoid coffee which have caramel, cocoa and chocolate notes as I drink black only. Like Grapefruit, they (especially cocoa and dark chocolate) can be difficult to delineate if they are notes or a brew malfunction. These also spoil my nice black coffee. 😊 Fifth, notes on espressos are a different class altogether as scope for a brew malfunction is greater than on a filter. For me, it is very difficult to pick the notes on the thick concentrated liquid. One needs to dilute them to release the notes, IMO. I don’t tend to identify the notes on espressos, unless I dilute them which I do often. Finally, I have drunk a lot of coffee which are thoroughly enjoyable even if I could not identify any notes. Notes are just a confirmation that we got the brews right.

A few things ive picked up that are mostly wrong and spouted on facebook, youtube, reddit and coffee forums by people who think espresso can only be enjoyed as a straight shot . All milk based drinks are the same taste and have to be made with dark roast beans with added robusta. Absolute bill hooks Milk based drinks cant be enjoyed with medium or medium light beans 🤬🤐 People who drink espresso based milk drinks may as well use instant coffee. 😡😠👺🗯️ Any grinder will do for milk drinks as you need lots of fines to enjoy it 🤬😂😡😠👺 Well, lets just say i prefer to think a lot of experts and influencers are sadly Wrong at best. Its probably better to talk about equipment!!

My preferences seem to change with the seasons. I prefer lighter more fruity / acidic coffee in the summer and warmer months and tend to drink more pour overs. During the dark cold winter months I prefer espresso based milk drinks so opt for thicker , heavier mouthfeel & flavours.

> @"Adrianmsmith"#p73954 Its probably better to talk about equipment!! Isn't the purpose of using specific equipment to steer the flavour profile?

I can only laugh at the time/money some spend in their pursuit of the hyped next best thing. Once a decent level of equipment is reached you're just pissing in the wind trying to get much more than .5% perceived improvement. By far the most important variable is the coffee being used. I have a very capable machine/grinder setup that gives me exactly what I prefer with straight espresso, main focus is on green selection/roast development. That will deliver by far more results in the demitasse than all equipment changes made regardless of price spent. Also don't buy into the 'supertaster' bull**** as we all have different levels of taste/aroma perception. None is better than the rest, just different. Hilarious when some mention they aren't on a 'professional/expert' level when discussing their findings on coffee, equipment, etc. Only difference between professional and amateur status is the pro gets paid to do it, definitely means nothing in the way of actual skill/knowledge on a given subject.

@"MWJB"#p73960 I would argue it's about getting "better" coffee based on whichever metric you may wish to use to measure that! There's also the functional side of how things work, do they make your life easier or more repeatable. Workflow, ease of use etc not to mention sometimes just wanting something pretty or well made. We might try to tell ourselves that we're chasing marginal gains but I think a lot of us enjoy the hobby and like to experiment with no specific purpose or expected outcomes.

> @"JonWoo187"#p73964 Also don’t buy into the ‘supertaster’ bull\*\*\* Yeh, the thing is you will never have the same taste as them no matter what words you use to describe that taste . And theres no memory function in the human brain to recall an exact taste from yesterday or last week, just perception and or bull 5h1t. If it were possible to split a shot in to 5 and somehow freeze it in time, i don't think it would taste the same 5 days running as my, your, our mouth won't be in exactly the same state 5 days running. And im talking my morning coffee in my kitchen, not some laboratory experiment under laboratory controlled conditions. As for equipment "upgrades", i, for one change equipment as much to see how different equipment works and how different theories follow through than to make "better" coffee. "Better" is very difficult to describe or even define. After all were not talking black / white, good / bad, were talking slight differences at the level of equipment usually discussed on this forum.

I think the tasting notes on the bag are needed to encourage people to buy it and to know roughly what to expect? There may well me a lot of poetic license but the flavour descriptors draw me in every time, I’m a sucker for anything exotic sounding even if I haven’t a clue what it tastes like.

A lot of defensive comments here 🤔

Where’s your palate at?

Adrianmsmith

JimmyP But I also believe that straight espresso can be delicious to anyone. Assuming it’s prepared correctly

I always prepare it correctly and deliciously, by adding it to milk ☕

JimmyP

MWJB Why’s that? Do you know it all already? Palates can be improved 🙂👍

MWJB

JimmyP Because if you’re going to brew as espresso, or as drip/any other percolation, it needs to work via that method & resulting higher extraction.

You also need to be more specific with the word ‘cupping’, the SCAA heavily formalised a cupping protocol (e.g. time in the roaster, ground colour on the Agtron scale, grind size, brew ratio & steep times, they have made a few, non-critical, changes since), but most people show no evidence of adhering to this and do whatever they feel like ‘in-house’. Even the SCAA standards are a bit of a mish-mash of pre existing works that they shoe-horned into a single recommendation.

Besides, cupping was innovated a hundred years prior to the SCAA’s existence and little in the way of documentation, nor specs remain beyond using 5oz rocks glasses and 7.3g of coffee. It was a diagnostic exercise to eliminate the risk associated with buying lots based purely on a promise and a handshake, it’s a QC for green buyers, not a ‘magic eye’ into production roasts.

Adrianmsmith

MWJB Sadly, this option was taken from me, rather than a conscious decision, or choice.

I understand this as my wife has relatively recently become dairy intolerant and more recently been told to avoid caffeine, hence my posts about a separate decaf grinder .

She has water added and occasionally a latte with almond milk.

I can drink espresso with water added 1:2 usually as a minimum, i just find a straight shot too short for one thing but too intense also.

Im not saying everyone should be the same.

Similarly i like single malt scotch whisky (straight of course) but do not like rum, but ive nothing against run drinkers 🥰

A tot of irish whisky is great in a latte.

MWJB

Adrianmsmith Similarly i like single malt scotch whisky (straight of course) but do not like rum, but ive nothing against run drinkers

I like malts, mostly Islay, some with water , some straght, or straight to start, then with water.

I didn’t know I liked rum until my brother gifted me a bottle of Brugal 1888 and a didn’t know what I was drinking.

The best spirit/liqueur in coffee is white Sambuca :-)

JimmyP

MWJB Jeez. I’m just hoping that people might be interested in discussing what they’re tasting.
Rather than the nonsense that you’re spouting right now.

JonWoo187

MWJB Who in their right mind follows someone else’s guidelines to begin with? Been in coffee awhile now and have never given SCAA ‘standards’ the least bit of respect and simply won’t. That sort of thing is like an industry claiming ’this is how it SHOULD be and if not then you’re doing it wrong!'… people need to figure things out to work in their favor and ignore idiotic guidelines.

JimmyP

MWJB I would argue that a cupping session is a great way for coffee enthusiasts to expand their palate. Right now I suspect you’re guilty of trying to hide behind lame words.

MWJB

JimmyP Lead by example then, like the rest of us have on the ‘In my mug’ thread, or the ‘V60’ thread, or the ’What’s in your cup this morning’ thread.

Everything I said in my response to you was fact.

JimmyP

MWJB I reckon you’re avoiding the issue here. Where’s your palate at? And how are you improving it?
Serious question 🤔

MWJB

JimmyP Looking for better roasted coffee all the time. My palate only has to please me (and those I brew for), I’m not taking any position on what anyone else needs to buy/do/perceive/prefer.

I do, seriously, often wonder if I am doing it all wrong, I do try many brewer & method recommendations, as well as trying coffee when out & about. I’m yet to encounter any evidence that I am doing it all wrong (maybe just occasionally, when exploring different methods/gear).

Always open to enlightenment if you have any suggestions?

JimmyP

MWJB Your palate is not fixed and can be improved with work. I think it’s about asking yourself questions when you taste your coffee.

MWJB

JimmyP Question one being?

JonWoo187

JimmyP To claim improvement is an opinion and not much else. Different isn’t necessarily better.

JimmyP

MWJB What am I tasting.

JonWoo187

JimmyP Exactly what I find ideal for my preference in espresso only… A dialed in Silvia Pro, recently did a pump swap so I can push extractions into the 90+ second range if I choose. Grinder is a Baratza Forte AP as I find the ceramics in this dialed in little beast to give superior grind quality/fines that just beat anything else I’ve used to this point. Over the yrs I’ve had various machines and grinders (flat and conical) and so far nothing else has matched this setup for taste and especially texture that I prefer. My preference is what I term insanely restricted extractions as in averaging using 20 grams of coffee depending on fineness/density, ending up with ⅔ of an oz in the demitasse. Restricted to the point of not seeing the 1st drop until upwards of 30 seconds and then push the extraction another 30-45 seconds. Melted honey butter sums up the viscosity and just outstanding taste/smoothness most of the time. Of course not all coffees will excel at this point. I also strongly prefer dry process (natural) over any other process method, mainly Yemen/Brazil offerings and take pretty much every coffee to a full city range.

Having a very capable setup my focus for some time has been on green selection/roast development as I can get exactly what I want in the demitasse by tweaking those variables. That can’t be done if you’re stuck buying roasted coffee regardless of changes made.

We all have varying experience, expectations, etc. and I will honestly say I’m missing out on nothing as I get exactly what I like with my daily fix. Been at this a fair number of years and estimate I’ve consumed upwards of 30K extractions so yeah I definitely know precisely what I want and how to achieve that. I don’t buy into palate improvement, cupping, what have you. Those that think their palate needs ‘training’ needs to figure out what THEY like in taste/aroma, not what others prefer as taste will always be subjective regardless of the spin some wanna put on it. IMBHO cupping is a waste of coffee to begin with unless you’re a commercial roaster with paying customers depending on it. Trying to cup specifically for espresso is a joke as that will never duplicate the changes in coffee/pressure being applied a week or more post roast.

MWJB

JonWoo187 SCAA’s standards largely existed before the SCAA, pertaining to brewed coffee and are still the basis today. They don’t tell people what to prefer, they provide diagnostic basis for coffee making.

As far as their espresso guidelines go, most people who make espresso make it within the broad SCAA guidelines, as all espresso definitions (SCAA, INEI, Illy) are pretty broad/flexible.

Without a basis, or square one, how do you figure things out in your favour? Give me an example of the process.

If you detect an improvement and you/your guests enjoy your coffee more, then we’re not talking medical efficacy trials, you have ‘better coffee’ in your cup (beyond easier workflow, I don’t see how you can improve coffee without making it taste better). Whether people you have never met/will never meet agree, shouldn’t bother you.

Whilst people seem to be very vocal on what/whether coffee & it’s perception can be improved, there isn’t much talk about what people are actually drinking. But, that’s up to people to elect to do if they feel so compelled.

JonWoo187 Those that think their palate needs ‘training’ needs to figure out what THEY like in taste/aroma, not what others prefer as taste will always be subjective regardless of the spin some wanna put on it. IMBHO cupping is a waste of coffee to begin with unless you’re a commercial roaster with paying customers depending on it.

I broadly agree, but finding what coffee you like is generally achieved buy buying what you think will tick those boxes, this is usually conveyed (or attempted) using tasting notes. I see a wide range of notes presented, I don’t see anyone saying what people should prefer.

JimmyP

JonWoo187 Everyone can improve their palate. Why so defensive? 🤔

dfk41

JimmyP what happens if it is that obscurity you are after? No one denies a single malt whisky has a unique set of characteristics but there are still many people who prefer it with ice

It’s pretty simple really. Milk will obscure the flavour of the coffee 🤷‍♂️

Amberale

dfk41

You folks have been having fun here.

For the record, I enjoy espresso drinks with and without milk, mainly in medium to dark roasts.

I remember a PHD study from a while ago that may have some relevance to the milk debate.
The subject was actually tea and why/whether black tea or tea with milk in it was better for dunking biscuits.
It concluded that milk in tea was better because the fats in milk actually dissolve the starch components of biscuits.
The fats also spread the flavours across the flavour receptors on your tongue, much like petrol spreading across the surface of water.
It also explained why we have milk on cereal rather than fruit juice.

I appreciate that coffee is a different substance to starchy biscuits but I wonder if there is any correlation and I don’t slavishly dismiss a bit of dairy in drinks.
Starbucks style buckets of milk are a different thing.

https://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2000/02/03/97177.htm

JimmyP

dfk41 Congratulations for the most nonsense I’ve read so far 🙂👍

Raja123

JonWoo187

In between filming blockbusters, John, you might want to consider starting a brand called “Angry Coffee”… :D (not to be confused with Ang Lee)..

Pompeyexile

Blimey, I did not expect this thread to get so intense, but thinking about it, I should have realised, like real petrol heads who can argue… sorry ‘discuss’ the minutia of car’s engines and power trains and what is better than what, those who deep dive into coffee and the machinery and technique for producing it, would be those who have, shall we say the most ‘strident’ opinions.

I on the other hand, who as I have said on multiple occasions, have no idea what I am doing or what I can taste, with what I think is the palate of someone with a permanently blocked up nose, look at it like this…

As a kid I hated sprouts, but as an adult I love them. Since going on my major weight loss, part of which was drastically reducing my intake of biscuits, chocolate, desserts (puddings in our house) in fact all sweet stuff, I now find that on the occasion when I do eat those things which I loved (I could never have one or two biccys with my cuppa, but at least half a packet) I can no longer enjoy as much, simply because I now find the sweetness too overpowering. So, given those two examples, over the years has my palate been trained or just changed with age and lifestyle choice? Now the only thing my palate has not changed with over time, and yes I have tried to ‘encourage’ it for want of a better phrase, is with the taste of Fish or any water born creature. I have tried all sorts, from many different places, and still find the smell and taste quite disgusting. I can never see me being able to ‘train’ my palate to like it, if only because I would probably have to go through putting many pieces of fish in my mouth and retching before I got to that stage.

Furthermore, I know what bitter taste is, I know what sweet taste is, I know what sour taste is. But ask me to identify many of the additional flavour descriptions offered by coffee roasters, and you might as well ask me to tell the difference between a real diamond and cubic zirconium. I know what caramel, chocolate, mandarin, apple, berry etc tastes like too, but have I ever been able to get even a hint of those from coffee… Nope, just a nice tasting brew; and I am happy with that, because that way I will hopefully never be disappointed chasing that rainbow and just enjoy looking at it.

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