I’m using profitec drive with niche duo, 18g vst basket. Not with every beans but most of them I’m getting unpleasant harshness, bitterness. I know coffee is bitter but unpleasant. After adjusting grind setting when I start getting some sweetness then there is still that harsh bitter aftertaste. I’ve been using different roasters, adjusting temperature, ratio by 5 ml and still, again some beans I’m getting great results but with so many of them , and currently red brick I’m just not sure how to get it of that unpleasant taste.

@"MuddyOne"#p74438 Red Bricks is by Square Miles, right? What’s your typical ratio and shot time of your espresso? I have never used a VST basket. IIRC, @"Cuprajake"#144 have had VST baskets on his Bianca before. Water, Water temperature, grind settings, puck prep can be a contributing factor. Please load a video of your shot. I am sure we have a few members who use VST baskets. They may be able to assist you after looking at the video.

@"LMSC"#p74440 Maybe I’ll try with stock basket, yes red brick is by square mile but I had that with different roasters too. My typical starting point is 1:2 then I adjust once I get grind setting and temperature right. But sometimes nothing seems to be helping 🤷🏻♂️ I can post video of shot in couple days as I have couple of maintenance things to do with my drive .

Loose the vst, Temp will be your enemy

Make sure machine is hot, 45 minutes at least. Set temperature to 94C. Leave the flow control alone, fully open. I’m assuming you are using a bottomless porta filter. If not, do that, and work on your prep. Make sure the shot is extracted properly and evenly. Set the pressure to 9 bar (using the screw under the machine).

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p74444 So the machine is set at 11 bar right? I think I remember seeing that somewhere before, why do they ship machine like that? Why do you suggest to leave control vslvd fully open? Profitec says that normal flow is achieved at 1 And 1/4 , I’m asking these questions to have better understanding about your advice.

@"MuddyOne"#p74455 - judging by your comments, you need to diagnose what your shots have an unpleasant harshness and dryness. I’m suggesting you go back to basics and start from a common baseline. I wouldn’t take the manual as gospel. They also tell you to descale the machine, blackflush and never lubricate the cam.

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p74458 you say I shouldn’t be backflushing either?

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p74458 where do I start then ? You said go back to baseline ?

My current “ tactic” is that I pull a shot 1:2 ratio , taste and adjust grind accordingly . Once I find best grind setting then I lock that too and see if adjust ratio helps, if going either way by 5-10ml helps I lock it , if not I get back to 1:2 . After all that is locked I adjust temperature to see if that improves anything. Any advice here then I’m Doing stuff wrong?

if its not all beans then perhaps just crap beans?

I can’t seem to get rid of unpleasant harshness and dryness

MuddyOne

MediumRoastSteam

I may record my workflow today later , yeah I have bottomless with 18g vst. I weight 18,3 g with duo, check weight after grinding, that’s 18.1 /2 then I wdt, tap gently sides and bottom of portafilter, sometimes I use levelling tool , tamp , check if it’s level and pull a shot.

Extraction started after 10s, lasted 25s with 38 ml. Awful shot.

MediumRoastSteam

MuddyOne then I wdt, tap gently sides and bottom of portafilter, sometimes I use levelling tool , tamp , check if it’s level and pull a shot.

To be clear: you don’t count after the first drip. You count the total time. So it’s 30s from lifting the lever up.

Don’t tap. Just do WDT to level and then level tamp. What does the shot look like? (Video would be good).

The fact your machine is overheating doesn’t help - would result in a bitter shot.

MuddyOne

MediumRoastSteam

Flow control is in correct position.

Maybe, just maybe because my machine is overheating and instead of enough water steam is partially coming out?

MuddyOne

MediumRoastSteam

Total shot from lifting the level was 25s with 1:2 timer shows that , with first drip after 10s ich seconds. Yeah I’ll record later .

MuddyOne

I uploaded two videos of shots, one through YouTube. Another one just shot. Tbh these shots don’t look that bad but honestly sometimes machine seems like choking and despite extraction starts after 10s the shot may still only take 25s with 1:2

I said the shots don’t look bad, but they taste awful, there is the tongue stinging unpleasant harshness and dryness. Whatever I’m doing wrong, I have no idea and I start to believe that it is more fault of machine overheating and we talk in other thread.

Someone told me that this is group head being too hot, and it’s flash boiling. If I adjust temperature to 91/90 and under degrees there is no issue, no weird sound and normal amount of steam, I’ll see what retailer says . Here are the videos .

MediumRoastSteam

MuddyOne - I can see the shot starts well, and go wild/deteriorates halfway through. questions:

how old are your beans?
how old have they been inside that air escape?
where are they kept? (Same room?)
what basket are you using? (Assuming VST 18g?)

All I can think of is that your coffee is well past their best. This could be where they are kept if the environment is too hot, or temperature fluctuates. I see for example your machine and grinder are right in front of a radiator. This is not the best idea.

MuddyOne

MediumRoastSteam red brick is about 3 weeks old, same in airscape but same thing happens from bag like today morning . My beans are stored in the same room but in built in the wall wardrobe where it’s rather cooler, not sure if I have better place to keep them, in the fridge for each shot?

Regarding the equipment, I have very little choice to rearrange my room set up, why is it such a bad idea? I mean I can imagine there are better places than right next to radiator but is it so harmful?

MuddyOne

MediumRoastSteam

It was honest question, should I keep beans in the fridge instead? I’m really not sure.

LMSC

I would also try the normal basket, if I were you, if you haven’t already. 😊

MuddyOne

LMSC yeah I’ll do Normal basket and see if there is any difference.

MuddyOne

LMSC

One is stock basket, another came with bottomless , the stock seems narrower is it ok to use with bottomless portafilter?

LMSC

MuddyOne Either should be ok with your bottomless, just to see if it makes a difference.

@MediumRoastSteam is great at helping people trouble shoot. While he expertly guides you, I have a question for you, considering the beans are just 3 weeks old.

Were you experiencing similar taste issue with any other set up? You may have already mentioned it earlier? Do you drink as a straight espresso or dilute it with water or drink as a flat white?

MediumRoastSteam

MuddyOne should I keep beans in the fridge instead? I’m really not sure.

I don’t think fridge is the best idea either.

This is a suggestion: get some more red brick from square mile - make sure you use it no more than a week post roast, 2 weeks max. Can you get your shots to run in 30s for 36g?

This is what I do when I buy 1kg, or even 500g: I split the bags in 228g each (19g dose), vac seal in put in the freezer. When I want to use it, I bring it out 30 minutes before (or a few hours, overnight even) and let it get to room temperature. Don’t open the bag straight out of the freezer otherwise you’ll get moisture in your beans due to condensation. I’m not saying you should do that. But let’s go back to basics and try fresher beans.

MuddyOne

LMSC I drink all sort of drinks but straight espresso is where my problem comes,long black comes out nice and smooth,maybe I should adjust my recipe for higher yields ,maybe 1:2 is too strong for my taste buds.

My previous set up was barista touch and Compaq e5 and yeah my experience was similar, one of the reason I decide to change my grinders.

Cuprajake

Never got on with redbrick

Try a different bean, I personally can’t stand Guatemala beans, perhaps you don’t like these

Do you use a pick screen or anything? Use the stock basket, vst are hard to use and imo not really needed unless you’re after every last % in extraction.

What temp is the machine at and how long has it been on?

MuddyOne

Cuprajake temp is set at 94 degrees with 2 now off set but as mentioned in other posts some weird excessive steaming is coming out from group head above 91 degrees and im currently waiting response from retailer as no one here seems to experienced such behaviour before, my machine is often on for around 30 minutes before first brew.

MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake Never got on with redbrick

Try a different bean, I personally can’t stand Guatemala beans, perhaps you don’t like these

Guatemala? 🤔

Adrianmsmith

MuddyOne

Do you have a multimeter with a wire thermocouple you can check temp actually in the portafilter with. Its easy to fit portafilter with a wire couple inside it, wont damage anything. With the steam you are mentioning maybe your running hotter than the numbers suggest.

MediumRoastSteam

MuddyOne wait wait wait!

Your machine… You said it was at 94C…

MuddyOne Cuprajake temp is set at 94 degrees with 2 now off set but as mentioned in other posts some weird excessive steaming is coming out from group head above 91 degrees

But look closely at the video before it starts drawing water… It reads 97C? Could this be the cause of the steam?

What’s going on?

MuddyOne

Adrianmsmith Can you recommend one i tried to google that now but just wires come up first. Ill order one,good to have I guess.

LMSC

MuddyOne Sorry, based on what you have shared, may be, your taste buds might not be suiting you to drink straight espresso. I am not saying you should not or doesn’t. It is another angle which might be worth considering. The only way to find out is trying other options advised here.

Espresso is a thick liquid and diluting (not pulling longer) with hot water would not just help release the flavours but also help us appreciate the cup better.

Unless you are using lighter stuffs, 1:2 is ok. I don’t know if Red Bricks fall on the darker side (like Medium Dark). May be, you can try 1:1.5.

You have lots of suggestions (stock basket, fresher beans, anything other than Red Bricks) which should keep you very busy. 😊

Edit:

Redbricks has Caramel as a flavour which can be likened to bitterness at the finish. This isn’t unpleasant like medicinal.

LMSC

MediumRoastSteam Guatemala

Blend, if from

https://shop.squaremilecoffee.com/products/red-brick?srsltid=AfmBOoqYe4NKZ-Jt4p1GxjGdd_D6Z-ZmiqvpJDRpFh3hAGujPWNJ7Okg

Cuprajake

MediumRoastSteam

Yep vile just taste of grass

https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/getting-accurate-shot-temperature-displays-on-pided-double-boilers-without-thermometer-t54897.html

Have a look at that for your flash boiling, temps too high by the sounds of it, remember its just a number, if you are flash boiling something is wrong, try dropping your temp down to 90 and repeat, keep all other things the same change one variable at a time

Adrianmsmith

MuddyOne

Will take a photo of what i mean tomorrow, may not be worth buying just for this though…..

This is not a recommendation but just to show what i mean. Just got this off amazon…..

Google thermocouple k type meter

Proster Digital Thermometer Dual Channel Thermocouple Thermometer with Two K- type Thermocouples Temperature Meter Gauge with LED Backlight for K/J/T/E/R/S/N Thermocouple https://amzn.eu/d/8PzmcdY

Adrianmsmith

MuddyOne

See below my totally unscientific method without purchasing devices to fit to your portafilter !!

What i will say after doing this just now, you must be fairly high if you are noticing steam.

See half way through where i get to around 102 degrees. Very little evidence of steam and pressure only around one bar or less.

Starting point with tape was to create flow restriction.

End of video shows checking calibration at 100 degrees in open boiling water.

Befor anyone says this shows the Evo to be reading low, please bear in mind im shifting more volume and flow than on a normal shot. May try later on a genuine shot just to see what im actually brewing at.

@MuddyOne where are you located, your welcome to borrow this meter if it could be any use what so ever.

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