Tasting notes... A lot of nonsense?

MediumRoastSteam

This tasting notes business got me thinking and made me ask myself a few questions…

Tasting notes are most from cupping rather than brewed with equipment. That I understand.

However, I’ve seen tasting notes saying “strawberries and lime” when the coffee has been roasted quite dark. All I could taste was ash.

Moreover, how’s it possible to add tasting notes to green coffee, when the level of roasting highly influences what the coffee is going to taste like?

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam Moreover, how’s it possible to add tasting notes to green coffee, when the level of roasting highly influences what the coffee is going to taste like?

Shhhh, we must ruin the marketing.

In general, I might get one flavour reminiscent of something, very rarely two + coffee of course….I do like my coffee to taste of coffee. Perhaps I’m just useless. I suspect if people didn’t see the tasting notes, they would all taste different things. In fact, I have read posts where people were guessing and basically tasted everything you could possibly taste for an unknown coffee.

When I was younger I did some research into sensory tasting and for a while in my latter years did some tasting as part of the Sensereach program. My own personal view is that taste is influenced by:

Expectation - How you expect that type of coffee, or that roaster to taste and whether it will be good or bad e.g. Colonna Dashwood etc.. Even how much a coffee has been bigged up
Confirmation bias (what you are told it should taste like) and how expensive your kit is
Environment - Whether you are in cold and windy Yurt, or a Luxury specialist Coffeeshop
Temperature - The temperature of the beverage
Preparation - How good you are I guess, but also ratios, temps etc..
The glass/cup you drink it from. I guarantee it will taste better from a special £60 espresso glass, than a £1 shot glass
How it’s roasted

I’d like to see taste notes simplified, and I wouldn’t mind knowing if it tastes of coffee e.g. Big and Bold, Mild etc..

Pompeyexile

The trouble with green beans like me when I read the tasting notes, make my brew and then can’t detect any of those flavours described, I feel I have failed in some way.

Thinking about it, aren’t they down to an individual’s taste buds? I mean, I remember Jilly Goolden from BBC’s Food and Drink describing some wine and I’m sure she once said she could taste peardrops, liquoriche and rubber, for a wine she liked. Now excuse me, but if I could taste rubber in anything, I’d throw the chuffer down the drain. Plus it does leave one to wonder what she did in her spare time.

I’ll be honest, I have never had the real exact tasting flavours as described on the packs of beans. I get the occasional odd hint of something, but that’s it. Now I know that could be down to my prep, temperature of water, my lack of taste sensitivity, equpment used etc. When it says I should be tasting caramel or hazelnut, should it be as pronounced as sucking on a Werther’s or munching on a Topic (a hazelnut in every bite) or just a hint of those flavours?

Either way, I think because it really is subjective, I’ll not worry about the tasting notes and settle for a nice cup that is not too bitter or too sour and after taking a sip, makes me emit a long satisfying Ahhhhhhhh!

-Mac

Mmmm…. chocolate, advanced trigonometry and a suggestion of Edward Snowdon.

gotters

all tastes like coffee to me, joking aside I do sometimes get the notes in quite a pronounced way (with food my palette is pretty good and I’m a non smoker). Pact Zaroca for example tastes almost like a mocha to me it’s so cocoa prominent, and I get general fruity or floral notes.

things can disappear up their own wazoo quite quickly though, especially with places like Workshop coffee who often give tasting notes most people wouldn’t have a clue about - I’m getting fresh mangosteen and persimmon.

PortafilterProcrastinator

I can’t talk for green beans, as I have never roasted my own coffee, but I do find tasting notes in general tricky.

I try to treat them as ‘tasting suggestions’ or a general direction to aim for in brewing. MediumRoastSteam makes a good point about roast level. Even with roasted coffee, similar tasting notes can be seen across multiple coffees.

Do we get used to flavours at certain roast levels and from certain roasters? Such that if we get a coffee that is, for example, a darker medium roast that one is used to, we can be thrown off (falls under ‘expectation’ in DavecUK post) - it might still be a great tasting coffee, but our internal barometer means we’re thrown off.

I take the same approach as hornbyben - I try to aim for similar flavour profiles, but try not to ‘chase a taste’ too much as it takes some of the enjoyment out of it for me. For that purpose the notes are useful, they are a guide, but a target? Not for me.

Pompeyexile

Phew! It’s not just me then?

Mind you, I do look at the description of a coffee’s flavour profile when deciding what to buy. For example, if it says chocolate, caramel, fudge, hazelnuts etc I will go for those, just because I prefer that to citrusy flavours. In other words, I’d rather eat a Double Decker/Mars Bar/Marathon than a packet of Opal Fruits (Starburst to you youngsters). But, as I said, none have ever really given me that ‘Finger of Fudge’ in the mouth experience.

gotters

What was very interesting was doing a Workshop taste testing where they sell you 5-6 types then put up a guided video on YouTube - there was definitely a significant change in perceived taste as the coffee cooled and call it suggestion or our willingness to go along but we did get some of the flavours they were saying quite strongly (one was really odd as it was rhubarb and came thru so clear) - now whether we’d have got that without the suggestion who knows.

In some cases we’d pause the vid and my partner would say something like ‘it tastes herbal’ and when we restarted it was what the bloke in a beanie hat said next - she was proud of that.

It was a good experience and worth the price.

We also did the Pact advent calendar and that has really taught us the language to hone in on that suits our tastebuds

MediumRoastSteam

I’m not averse of tasting notes - providing they are for the roast level provided and for the specific brewing method.

There’s no point, in my opinion, to say that a coffee tastes of Strawberries and Lime and it’s sold as green coffee. I can then roast to the end of 2nd crack and be wondering why it tastes like ashtray and burnt rubber.

Just check Falcon Micro website as an example. :-)

hornbyben

I think the other thing to remember with tasting notes is that they are a language to discuss flavour variety, not really a description of the actual taste.

What I mean by this is, all coffee will taste primarily of coffee, same as all wine will taste primarily of wine. If you want to describe the difference in flavour between two coffees this would be impossible without using three language of other flavours. While people do taste differently the core flavours should be interpreted similarly by a trained palette.

As an example, a coffee might be described as green apple, and what this really means is it contains a fruity acidity that is more reminiscent of a green apple than other fruit acids. It doesn’t mean the coffee should taste of apples like it would if you added a flavour syrup (if such a thing exists).

For the average punter I think the most useful thing to do with flavour notes is to use them backwards. I.e. if you try a coffee that you absolutely love, look to buy other coffees with similar flavour profiles. If you hate a coffee, then avoid matching flavour profiles.

MediumRoastSteam

hornbyben - I agree. But for a wine, you open the bottle, pour and and then chase the tasting notes. For a coffee, it’s not that simple - as one has to first brew the coffee if it’s roasted. And even much more complicated iff the coffee has to be roasted first.

The analogy to wine would be something like: All wine should really taste of grapes. However, given the skill of the wine maker, the wine may have hints of berries and vanilla. It doesn’t mean that any wine made with that grape will be like that though.

DavecUK

I remember a coffee called Limoncillo and many many years ago (16 or so) people were saying it tasted strongly of lemons, all based on the name….when it was actually the name of a farm. However, it made them taste lemons, one person after another was agreeing with the first person who said it?

It would have been a coffee with particularly high acidity from the region grown or bean varietal. Amazing how people could be influenced just by the name. Speciality coffee was not so well known about in those days.

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK I remember a coffee called Limoncillo and many many years ago (16 or so) people were saying it tasted strongly of lemons, all based on the name

Sorry Dave. Sorry to disappoint. It tastes of Green Apple and Toffee. 🤣👍

Jokes aside… How spooky! And yes, you are correct, it’s indeed the name of the farm where the coffee comes from. Well remembered!

This is the green coffee which came with with the Behmor Roaster. Another example of green coffee which tastes like… Err…. Chocolate….

So, if I press P2 on the Behmor (recommended roasting profile for Central Americans), will I get those tasting notes? Maybe. But me thinks…. Nonsense. Total nonsense.

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam This is the green coffee which came with with the Behmor Roaster. Another example of green coffee which tastes like… Err…. Chocolate….

Which I would expect, if it’s roasted as I think it is. Nicaraguans often had a distinct cocoa note unless roasted really light.

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK - precise the point I’m trying to make. How can they add tasting notes if they don’t know how I’ll roast the coffee? Let alone how I’ll brew it?

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam precise the point I’m trying to make. How can they add tasting notes if they don’t know how I’ll roast the coffee? Let alone how I’ll brew it?

Agreed, in fact many coffees can be roasted to different levels and profiles, so why not give the taste notes for those different ways, a.g. light medium and medium dark? I personally think, like you, there is a lot of poetic licence used and much of it is marketing speak….especially the choices of farm names, or the washing station name if that sounds better.

Or I’m just an old cynic

Giphy - Lying Cbs GIF by Paramount+

Rob1

MediumRoastSteam

It’s the notes for a standard cupping roast, medium profile.

If a roaster buys the coffee without sampling or perhaps just discovers they can’t get a good roast out of it then they’re going to use the notes from the importer rather than try to put their own notes on there. Some roasters might just shy away from putting their own notes on there too.

I only bought from roasters who could consistently deliver the tasting notes on the bag, because ultimately that’s why I’m buying the coffee. Dark arts were good for me even with some of the whacky flavours. I’ve only had one bag from Extract but they didn’t disappoint either. Coffeecompass and Rave I find hugely unreliable when it comes to tasting notes. Cartwheel and Crankhouse are a bit hit and miss for me but I’d still give them a chance.

Now I just roast my own and don’t have to worry about it.

Elcarajillo

If you are an old cynic I am a super cynic where ms =bs or flop

MediumRoastSteam

Rob1 Now I just roast my own and don’t have to worry about it.

OK - which leads me to the next stage of this discussion.

Now that you buy greens… How do you make an educated purchase, and how do you know what to expect and, more importantly, how do you know the information provided is reliable and will deliver for you?

Rob1

MediumRoastSteam

I get samples before buying.

MediumRoastSteam

Rob1 - Do you get from smallbatchroasting or falcon micro these days @Rob1 ?