Sage Oracle - rusty grouphead

Clodius

@dfk41 I know you’re trying to help, but you’re looking at the wrong part. It’s the brew boiler that’s rusting, not the shower head. To get a better sense of the components have a look at this video around minute 4:30

dfk41

Clodius This is the bottom of the brew boiler on an Oracle. It looks nothing like your picture

Clodius

@dfk41 again, I appreciate you’re trying to help, but the shower head assembly is separate from the boiler see 06.2 in the parts diagram

dfk41

Just to make sure that we are singing from the same song sheet, I am suggesting that the photo you posted is not of the brew boiler

Clodius

I didn’t know the exact terminology.

The rusty part is 06.2 in the diagram, called the shower head assembly.

The shower head part that you’re referring to is 06.5 in the diagram and is called shower head - inner, definitely not the issue here

MediumRoastSteam

Oh crap! You are right! For a moment I was also thinking that was the dispersion plate! It’s not, it’s actually the bottom of the boiler as you say!

It’s the group that’s rusted (i.e.: above the dispersion plate, below the boiler).

Pompeyexile

Talking of the Sage Oracle… This just popped into my email…

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 This is the next evolution of our most advanced machine.
And it’s coming soon.

odor4fun

The group head is made of aluminum covered with a black protective resin that is starting to peel off. It’s not rust.

He can still use it.

The long-term solution would be to replace the group. A repair shop could try applying a new PTFE protective layer after cleaning and sanding the current group, but the cost could be close to that of a new group

JonWoo187

odor4fun Have seen this mentioned with pics on other forums and typical Breville dumbgineer thinking. Of course their fanbase will go on and on about the temp stability, blah blah… who cares when the performance is short lived and no telling what you might be ingesting with the cheap parts breaking down in a matter of a few years.

JonWoo187

Breville/Sage seems to think innovative features are more important than durability/longevity and it clearly shows. Personally can fix anything in front of me as needed, but wouldn’t tolerate their Micky Mouse design/build quality requiring periodic fixes just to function reliably daily.

odor4fun

Of course, it is not perfect, but it does not contain cheap materials that disintegrate over time. On the contrary, the materials used are of good quality and I am referring here to the water tank, the composite material from which the internal casing of the device is built, the drip tray has silicone pads and does not vibrate.

The boilers are made of stainless steel, the water paths are with PTFE tubes, and the sealing with silicone O-rings. The heated group is made of aluminum and has a protective resin applied which unfortunately, after several years of use begins to exfoliate. But it does not come off and does not pass through the shower screen, so it is safe. I think the phenomenon is accentuated by the electrochemical corrosion that occurs if the dispersion part is replaced with a brass one. It can be replaced with a stainless steel part, but not brass.

It has features that should be found in all espresso machines with boilers, drain taps on both boilers for descaling or transport. You don’t want to see residue build up in the boilers of your espresso machines, the Breville Dual Boiler is one of the most hygienic espresso machines with boilers.

The original design with silicone O-rings created some sealing issues with the steam boiler over time, exacerbated by lack of maintenance and the use of hard water. If used properly, it will last.

Recently manufactured models have sealing issues with the internal O-rings of the level probes.

These small leakage issues that Breville has not fixed have given them a bad reputation.

dfk41

odor4fun I have had many Sage Double Boilers over the years.I find them innovative and all things being considered pretty good. For me, the main issue of longevity has been addressed. 3 or so years ago Sage upgraded by stopping using O rings that always fail eventually, casing many of the problems. They switched over to compression fittings and that seems to have cured the earlier problems. I will undoubtedly have another at some point and like my Elizabeth, will keep it until it dies……that is a novel experience for me of course!

odor4fun

By switching to compression fittings, the flexibility of the BDB espresso machine was lost. It has a generous interior space and is the ideal platform for custom projects. Other manufacturers also use o-ring seals but I haven’t heard of any leakage issues.

Quality control is lacking with Breville.

dfk41

odor4fun Sage sell thousands of machines worldwide. This means that even with a small % of fails it is a lot of machines. The typical Sage owner is not the sort of person to repair and fiddle on (though some are). Speaking to Coffee Classics, there UK repairer, they told me that after a few years the O rings wear/break down and what is a relatively simple fix for a hands on person becomes an expensive nightmare. They also told me that since the switch to compression fittings, they were seeing far fewer issues with the newer machines

odor4fun

I have a picture of the group from a BDB manufactured in 2017, where the same detachment of the protective layer that appears to be PTFE is observed.

It was cleaned regularly and at the last checks that layer was not detached, it just had slight irregularities (slightly bulging in places)

After so many years of use, a new group is required.

Or who knows, I like customization projects and maybe I’ll transform the brewing group, making one out of stainless steel. The only problem would be the more difficult heating with a stainless steel group, but I think it can be compensated with a more powerful heating element.

The BDB group has a heating element of only 100w and is thermally efficient. The entire espresso machine heats up from room temperature in just 4 minutes.

The device worked well over the years, without failures, only blue O-rings from the level probes were replaced on the steam boiler, and the interior hasn’t depreciated over time.

The coffee circuit water pump and the group gasket were also replaced. (The pump started to work inconsistently during pre-infusion with low power).

The group seems to be the only part that has depreciated over time, apart from the pump, which after a longer operating time is usually replaced.

dfk41

odor4fun Do you live anywhere near NE23…..LOL How I wish I was handy with spanners.

odor4fun

This wouldn’t be my first customization project, I’m an engineer in the technical field and I enjoy these projects.

I turned a BDB into a profiling and flow tracking machine. I should start a new thread about it, maybe it will inspire someone. I easily installed an advanced module for digital pressure profiling and flow tracking, which takes my extraction control to another level. The pressure profiles are more uniform than those of Decent machines.

For example, I can digitally control the mechanical pre-infusion with a needle valve from a Slayer espresso machine by setting the pump parameters, with 55 corresponding to approximately 107 degrees. I have set various profiles, Slayer, Lever, E61, etc.

It works without a tablet, BDB uses native volumetric dosing, and the pressure profile is provided by the ito module with Leva! firmware.

It has a digital paddle with a resolution of 0.1 bar x 20 positions per full rotation, from which I can manually adjust the coffee flow if a correction is desired, and the change is smooth and immediately applied to the entire extraction profile. The change is visible both on the pressure gauge and on the tablet, if I want to see the extraction profile.

I have a 12-inch Samsung tablet placed at the back of the BDB’s cup warmer, on which I mainly listen to jazz from 1.FM (Adore Jazz). I don’t even open the monitoring app anymore, I just press one of the brewing buttons and the coffee is always just as good.

odor4fun

Brewing Head SES920 from PDC 1522 | SP0023064

odor4fun

The modification seems quite simple, in a mechanical workshop:

A thin layer of the old group is removed (1-2 mm) and small circular grooves are created for the O-rings around the fixing screw and the group inlet hole.

A stainless steel disc is made with the thickness of the removed layer,

slightly larger than the group diameter, to overlap the group gasket by 2-3 mm.

The disc is drilled in the center to allow the fixing screw to pass through and in front of the group inlet hole. Centering recesses are created with a mandrel.

The dispersion piece will fix the stainless steel disc. The water pressure pushes it towards the group and seals it through the two O-rings and the group gasket.

The role of this disc is to prevent water from touching the aluminum surface.