I saw this picture posted on their Instagram account so presume it is ok to post here. I am not sure what it shows as the hold up was supposed to be cast groups, but from the blurb it does sound promising! I wonder what the eventual price point will be. I must say the renders that found their way out did look enticing! [URL=https://i.imgur.com/VjIJQ2f.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/VjIJQ2f.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/ak5AeE1.png][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/ak5AeE1.png[/IMG][/URL]

Last year, the announced expected price was 1000 GBP (probably + VAT).

@"pjw"#p6893 Well, allowing for things to have changed slightly in the pandemic, I would have thought a price around the £1400 to £1500 would be quite acceptable, although of course, the lower the better!

Argos is still being offered at 850 USD. Vectis can and will be more expensive, but probably not that much. 1500 GBP will too close to L Compressa. But we will see.

id say rightly so as the argos needs to be good value as its stand alone and a new company, the pandemic may have priced the vectus out the market, due to where it will sit, you'd have to be a lever nut or ££££ to buy it over something like a bianca

> @"Cuprajake"#p6902 you’d have to be a lever nut This is the target audience :)

> @"Cuprajake"#p6902 the pandemic may have priced the vectus out the market, due to where it will sit, you’d have to be a lever nut or ££££ to buy it over something like a bianca David may not be right, I remember a quoted price for it being £1,000…On HB Reiss was quoted as saying it was/would be more temperature stable than a Cremina and talked about simplicity. Perhaps he is aiming for the potential Cremina market? If he is, I think that's a tough nut to crack. I do agree that you would have to be a lever nut, or really, really want one.

Another nugget of information released by Londinium on this machine: https://londiniumespresso.com/blog/news/3442/vectis It reads: > At last, a small 58mm spring lever group. Direct fill, no pump, dipper fed, steam wand. 20cm wide, 30cm deep That’s roughly the size of the Elizabeth, transposed, slightly smaller. It’s a dipper though. I’d love to know what’s the trick on temp management. Looks interesting though, and certainly something I’ll be eyeing out as my next machine, providing it can be demonstrated it delivers.

> @"dfk41"#p6878 I am not sure what it shows as the hold up was supposed to be cast groups It seems to be the top of the group, where the lever pivots > @"DavecUK"#p6927 I do agree that you would have to be a lever nut, or really, really want one. Aren't these effectively the same thing? (Semi-serious question - given the competition and the possible price point)

I wonder what the price point will be, esp with the current climate

@"Cuprajake"#p23428 The price point is largely irrelevant until they are available Jake. All we have heard to date is promises and broken time tables all laced with the usual sprinklings of fairy dust. The Evo went from an idea we chatted about to production in 10 months, so what makes the little diddly so different. Personally, I would be surprised to see it surface anytime soon with the Argos looming, but what do I know.

Londinium Vectis

dfk41

From what we know about the Vectis, it is a dipper. That means that the group is bolted directly onto the boiler. This makes temperature control very difficult. Since it is a single boiler, it means that one boiler provides water for both making espresso and steam, and of course, water for steam is way to hot for espresso. If you look at the first video of it on Instagram, when the lever is dropped and water emitted, you can see how hot it is by the presence of steam. Do you need a single boiler or twin boiler? Have you space limitations? Make a list of desired features and we will help!

kheptan

in romania almost all coffee roasters uses light roast profiles, i’ve dinking speciality coffee for almost 10 years now :), acs its over my budget at least in romania(around 4000Euro), but even so i dont like the idea of having a display on my machine, i want something like londinium has ..simplicity

Cuprajake

kheptan there’s a used l1 on another forum, £1300 if they would ship be perfect for you, very basic just turn on, wait and pull

LMSC

kheptan so i dont like the idea of having a display on my machine,

What’s wrong with it?

Cuprajake

LMSC €3800 I believe

dfk41

Cuprajake Useless for lighter roasts though Jake. If you remember, when Londiddly realised they were excluding the largest part of the market (lighter roasts) they started to introduce the LR

kheptan

dipper its a new territory for me, my actual machine its an heat exchanger, single boiler, i dont drink lattes only maybe a few times in 3 months, i’m not interested in dual boiler machines because only i drink coffee in the morning

Amberale

kheptan

How about a Streitman CT2.
It fits your budget and simplicity requirements.
You can probably add a pressure kit from Gabor as well.

kheptan

do you think that vectis its not well suitable for light roasted coffees? because you cant control the extraction temperature?

Cuprajake

kheptan no one knows yet.

I asked the question about it needing a flush as the video posted showed near boiling water coming out. I got shot down and verbally abused off the creator of londinuim

Day later he’s on about flushing the group so you can’t win.

Seems to be what mood he’s in to what the machine actually does.

StevenG91

kheptan I doubt it’s useless. Just flush to bring group up to higher temp. For 1k + vat which is proposed price this will be a great little lever. People are jumping on steam coming out etc but these videos are from testing, the machine will go through further quality control and won’t be put into production until they are happy. I’ve owned many dipper levers including an Olympia Club, Gaggia Orione etc etc. If left on the group temp will usually not fluctuate and over heat due to the thermal mass of the group. They are more than capable of producing light roasts they just have there nuances. Dippers have been used for many many years. If you want something with variable temp then this probably isn’t your bag, and you’d be better with a PID machine. This is a simple and classic design that will require little maintenance and likely last for many many years. If you make back to back shots you could probably expect a bit of fluctuation in group temp as GH is mounted directly to boiler. With regards to coffee temperature, as it’s single boiler boiler, boiler pressure and steam pressure are one in the same, you can alter pressure higher by directly influencing the stat on most dippers if light roasts are more your bag.

dfk41

Why not go for something with real vintage and quality? Arrarex Caravel…….open boiler so by using a thermocouple and the on/off switch you have good control…….no steaming though. One of the simplest machines ever made!

Amberale

dfk41
Snap!
Has yours ever been used, looks mint.

dfk41

Amberale Hiya, it has been used but……when I bought it it turned up in the original box. As you will know they are easy to strip down and on doing so, there was a couple of coffee grinds but absolutely no residue at all. Nothing on the piston, the seals were absolutely fine so I did not bother changing them. I think I played with it once then realised it really ought to be put away! I have had a dozen or so of these and they are dear to me! May yours bring you much happiness!

dfk41

StevenG91 Hi Steven, I think the only part of what you said that I disagree with, is repeatability. You can guess at what you hope to do but unless you have rigged your machine up with measuring devices, then indeed you are guessing. We have been told, in the Londiddly blogs that the Vectis is more temperature stable than the Cremina. This claim was made whilst the Vectis was still a render so I wondered if you had any additonal inofmation on how this claim is achieved please.
I found this piece on HB.
**To be more precise, Reiss says that thermal stability of a dipper design (as is executed in the Vectis) is inferior to a thermosiphon system and not well suited to pulling many consecutive shots. After that concession he states that the Vectis will be more thermally stable than a cremina. He adds that that it is not suited for commercial environment.

I do not want to give the exact citation here without Reiss’ permission.**

StevenG91

dfk41

First off I’m not interested in any coffee politics, or he said she said. I also never spoke about or asked about any of what Reiss has said. If you want to speak about levers from an objective standpoint then fire away. I also never even mentioned repeatability. The vectis is probably more temp stable than cremina purely due to the size of the group. The gentleman above asked about wether the vectis could handle light roasts and as I stated above it can, as could any dipper machine. Of course a spring lever is repeatable, but if you really want accurate temp repeatability just add a GH thermometer like everyone else does. As with any dipper there will be group head fluctuations if consecutive shots are pulled and that’s just a fact, to which I’m not disputing.

DavecUK

StevenG91 First off I’m not interested in any coffee politics, or he said she said. I also never spoke about or asked about any of what Reiss has said.

You didn’t unfortunately Reiss does. I have read everything with interest about the Vectis and there have been a lot of bold statements made, before a machine even existed. Now it looks like Fracino have finally made a machine without the jellywobbles, I presume testing and any required rework can begin. A process I would imagine would take months. I know this because when I helped Lelit with some machines, there was significant time between beta testing (various prototypes and coming to market for each machine as follows. MaraX (1 year), Bianca (1 year) and Elizabeth (6 months). Testing temperatures alone for fine tuning and user advice took weeks, literally weeks for each machine. That’s how long it takes to simply temperature test properly.

The Niche Zero I was testing for well over a year. Even the Evo took 6 months to get to market, working with the existing Lego set.

The second prototype Vectis as far as I am concerned has now been produced by Fracino. Proper testing should put an end user product 6 months away.. It’s true to say the Vectis has been around 7 years on the making..but during all that time, no significant prototype testing could happen as it was only drawings. Now Reiss can poo poo what I am saying on the basis of I don’t have one and what could I know..but I have read everything published. Technically I also know a lot more than he realises.

Cuprajake made a few points and I do think he brings out some valid points. It’s not about politics but the fear about the man and his behaviour. https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/348-londinium-vectis/80 There was another user Al, who had a nightmare getting any useful support and had to turn to me to finally solve his Londinium problem. If it hadn’t been solved, his only option would have been to accept a lowball offer (not help) for his machine and stuff from a UK person with an interest in Londiniums.

The post below really encapsulates it for me.

Advice from anyone but us is worthless
fake comments about buyers remorse trade ins
Explain differences verbally…It can’t then be challenged and it’s badmouthing a competitors machine
He doesn’t build the machines he sells, Fracino build them
Badmouths Izzo Machines (who does that), then instills fear about a the stainless steel group sleeve that will never wear (unlike the chromed brass one on the Londinium)..
Fairy tale claims
Instils fear about getting parts (Al didn’t have much luck getting parts as Fracino had discontinued a part!)

So I think it’s valid for people to base some of their buying decision on the man. The rest should be tempered by the fact that.

The Londinium machines are low tech and the sale price is incredibly high for the build cost.
Rabid supporters mean lever development was set back 10 years, as no critical comment was tolerated
The 1 year warranty is in reality parts only….unless a certain UK person can make it round.

So to finish off, will the Vectis be a good machine, possibly? I think it actually looks good, the dipper principle is not new, so it should work as other dippers do if Fracino got the design right. I think the UK home market could do with some alternatives to things like the Pavoni, if well executed. The Argos lever is another example of a machine that looks good and could possibly be a good machine. There should be room for both in the market, but the critical areas will be availability and price. Londinium is not known for underselling itself (quite the opposite).

I am slightly disappointed that the boiler is not insulated but perhaps in production models it will be. One of the biggest problems Londinium has at the moment is Reiss and his attitude. His lies that dragged my name into it, was not a very smart move because I actually don’t have anything to lose. I don’t make my money from coffee and I am now more than happy to help any company for completely free with lever development and testing.

Ross if your listening, send me an Argos..I’ll be more than glad to help!

Cuprajake

I don’t get how we can even be talking about the stability of a machine thats not even been released to the market 🤯🤯🤯

The political side of it comes into play because the owners not a very nice person.

I can only speak of my own experience using machines,

Mite be worth closing the thread and not even giving the machine the light of day.

Platypus

Cuprajake I’m actually enjoying reading this thread , it would be a shame to close it. I just keep an open mind and accept that there is freedom of speech which ever way your opinion lies.
It is going to be a hugely important machine in terms of affordability and size. Apart from the new Odyssey Argos there is nothing else similar in this price bracket with a spring lever and a 58mm group.
Nothing is set in stone, even peoples views and opinions may well do a 360 either way when it’s released.

dfk41

Platypus Quite agree that we should be able to discuss openly! The thing I do not get, is this mantra that lives in the 58mm myth!mI had a Pedretti Kim that was a beautiful 58mm little lever and cannot remember it being stand out!

Cuprajake

Platypus the problem is, anyone associated with this forum won’t even get the chance to buy one, reiss personally sells the items. I know an owner of a machine who physically can’t buy parts.

Anyways, I’m never going to buy one, so I’ll move on.

LMSC

dfk41 It’s about time we see your full collection mate! Please take your time to get them all dusted (if required) and post your collections please. 😊

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