Wendougee Data

Adrianmsmith

Cuprajake f we are going down that boot and route i didnt pay import on my

Nor me on my df83 purchased from espresso outlet, drop shipped from china…..

dfk41

Cuprajake dfk41 if we are going down that boot and route i didnt pay import on my evo 2

Works both ways

I paid import duty on my Evo and was glad to do so. Are you saying ACS do this as a way of reducing the cost to the consumer like Decent do? Two wrongs do not make a right.

Cuprajake

dfk41 can only speak of my experience.

Paid it on the evo handles which were poor quality

Then didnt on the machine. Wether that was a gesture to me im unsure.

But winds me up when that excuse is used for decent and it happens to every other brand

DavecUK

Adrianmsmith Did they elaborate on why they thought that, given that it directly follows the mechanical gauge on the group with a difference to be expected by its position in the system, without resorting to trying to verify the output from the sensor?

No because this was the Falcon I, which uses same pressure sensor and pressure calculation algorithms. They were more interested in being right than listening or understanding.

delta76

DavecUK and this highlights how important it is to have a maker who listens to feedback and criticism and improve their products based on that. Decent has evolved since 1.0 to 1.45 and soon 1.46 with numerous improvements from feedbacks, and no machine is made obsolete - every machine can be upgraded should the owner want to do it, with reasonable cost.
Some view that as Decent is a perpetual beta machine, but I think it set it apart from the market.
Also, disclosing these numbers is kind of crazy https://www.home-barista.com/marketplace/decent-espresso-news-t66649-1750.html#p981355. I don't bother finding newer numbers but well, that transparency and confidence in their product is second to none.

BrendaninBrooklyn

DavecUK After 20 years, I think I have a feel for what the majority want and it's not a Decent, or Wenbdougee, or other super complicated machines.

yes, here -- unless I am misreading

DavecUK

BrendaninBrooklyn yes, here -- unless I am misreading

read it more carefully!

BrendaninBrooklyn

dfk41

David, see my reply to Dave C below

BrendaninBrooklyn

DavecUK

I think they are right. The value of this machine is not so much in the physical bits; it is in the intellectual property embodied in the software.

The physical bits are likely only worth that much.

If a customer fails to declare the software (assuming sales tax / VAT on software applies), that is the customer's concern. I wouldn't chance it but someone else might. If no VAT applies to software so be it.

Remember John B, the primary founder, emerged from Silicon Valley where IP always has a high value and hardware is often looked at as a liability (inherently diminishing asset).

As they've sold roughly 15,000 machines without problems with revenue authorities, I believe the revenue authorities take the same view. Decent uses top IP law firms so they undoubtedly received clear advice that this policy is legal and sound.

dfk41

BrendaninBrooklyn Decent uses top IP law firms so they undoubtedly received clear advice that this policy is legal and sound.

That is as maybe but their website tells you how much vat to expect to pay, as per the photo below. This therefore means they are placing the onus firmly on to the shoulders of the person buying it should anything go wrong. Let us just say of the 15,000 machines sold worldwide, 200 are UK bound. In another 5 years that might be 350. The VAT man at some point will become interested, after all, it is free money.

DavecUK

BrendaninBrooklyn As they've sold roughly 15,000 machines without problems with revenue authorities, I believe the revenue authorities take the same view. Decent uses top IP law firms so they undoubtedly received clear advice that this policy is legal and sound.

For Decent yes, they are doing everything legally (and they cover themselves by telling you you should declare VAT under your applicable laws), it's their customers who are not declaring VAT

BrendaninBrooklyn

dfk41

David,

You are thinking of this as a normal espresso machine -- a big hunk of metal with a lot of parts. What Decent is selling is a computer with bundled software. Different valuation.

I'd strongly guess the UK has 1,000 or more of these already, btw.

And again, John B was deeply in Silicon Valley. If there was any problem with this valuation he would know and being extremely ethical (yes very, very much so) he would not do it.

BrendaninBrooklyn

dfk41

the variable VAT -- they do sell parts, upgrade kits, accessories -- all will be VATed differently.

BrendaninBrooklyn

dfk41

and they also sell refurb; seconds, etc -- also subject to different rates

dfk41

BrendaninBrooklyn David,

You are thinking of this as a normal espresso machine -- a big hunk of metal with a lot of parts. What Decent is selling is a computer with bundled software. Different valuation.

Hiya, I hope that this next question does not show my ignorance, but, is there no vat due on software whether imported or not?

BrendaninBrooklyn

DavecUK

They do not control their customers' ethical standards, nor to my knowledge does any other product company.

BrendaninBrooklyn

dfk41

Here in NYC yes if purchased locally or within the USA. If purchased online from Decent, before last January I could have told you for certain, however with TACO'S tariff-du-jour whimsies I have no idea, and any answer today is likely contradicted tomorrow. Personally, I'd check the customs website here if I was buying one.

Option O made my recent P80 purchase simple, as they pay the tariff, and shipping to the US was flat-rate. Really painless assuming it gets processed by Customs during the indefinite shutdown.

DavecUK

BrendaninBrooklyn They do not control their customers' ethical standards, nor to my knowledge does any other product company.

I never said they did???

dfk41

BrendaninBrooklyn I forgot that you were US based. Perhaps others can chip in but I think in the UK VAT is eligible to be charged on software. Since the machine cannot run without it I do not see how you can really say that it is not part of the machine. I am sure there will be a way around this. Again, I might be wrong but is it not up to the owner to download the software onto a blank tablet or have I picked that bit up wrongly?

BrendaninBrooklyn

dfk41

Here until last January it depended. For example, I bought software from both Germany and Switzerland online -- no tax. However, I seem to remember some software from Asia that did have tax.

Also different classes of goods were taxed differently. Software lower than hardware -- but only it purchased internationally. Bought anywhere in the USA even online, local rates apply.

There was a "de minimus" rule; value under $800 was never taxed. This made everyday purchases by individuals easy. Now gone.

There is a huge industry as you may imagine, providing tax compliance services to businesses and thus increasing overheads and customer costs. Every town may be a different rate. And of course, now everyday is Saturnalia..

It's a boom market for tax lawyers and accountants specializing in tax matters. For the rest of us, it's a pit.

Jake can tell you how Decent handles this in the UK.

BrendaninBrooklyn

dfk41

David,

I'll just add that hardware and software are separate. You can purchase test instruments from HP, Agilent or many others for example and the two are separate and taxed separately

Most computers and phones are designed with a specific OS in mind but can run fine with alternatives. I cannot tell you how many versions of MS-DOS, Windows, Classic Mac OS, older versions of OSX, various UNIX / LINUX versions, and console OS, are running on my Apple laptop.

They are not monolithic and it seems, generally the tax people recognize this. It really is not a problem intrinsically.

None of this is new. IBM, Digital (DEC) HP, Sun, and all the rest were doing this since at least the Sixties. It is common practice and commonly accepted.

Also, this is jogging my memory from many decades ago. Canned software (word processors and such) were taxed at one rate here in NYC; software tools (compilers, databases, etc) at a different rate, and custom software at yet another. But this was in NYC. In Boston or Chicago, the rates and rules were different.

Not worth worrying about unless you are a tax lawyer and can drain (help) some client company stay compliant.

Adrianmsmith

dfk41 I forgot that you were US based

With a username like that 🤪😭☕

Ironically it is very close to new castle NY🤓

dfk41

BrendaninBrooklyn Brendan, things seem to be qite different in our respective countries. I am by no means an expert, so if I make a statement, anyone, please feel free to correct me.

The Decent appears to be two items. A machine and the software you need to run it. Can you buy a Decent without buying the software? If not then the two are interlinked. Could you for example, buy a car and import it without paying vat, then source an engine which has to be specific to that car and fit it?

I am pretty sure that vat is chargeable on the software element of the Decent in the UK and to get around this then the current arrangement exists. Like all tax loopholes, it WILL be closed at some point at which time in the UK the responsibility will fall squarely on to the purchaser who imported it. So, a DE1 Pro @ £2874 ought really be plus import and vat.

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