So those of us with smart meters could find ourselves hit with variable pricing tiers depending on the time of day and national demand. But what about the majority who don't have one but that's another story. The French have had variable tariffs for electricity for decades with, as I recall, up to five pricing tiers. Maybe more now. Some friends who moved into a house in the '90s were met with the electricity cutting out seemingly at random. Turned out the previous owner had installed a device so that when electricity pricing reached the highest tier whatever the time of the day - it would should down everything in the house. Can see such devices catching on here soon.

i've said this all along, as soon as you plug your fancy electric car in, ping your now on 40p a minuite charge, theres a reason they want everything running on electric. i was told the first gen smart meters will be useless as there selling the 2g bandwith they use?

Saw that in the news the other day, not particular a fan as it punishes people unfairly, sometimes due to no fault of their own. As for those who don't have smart meters, what comes to mind is water meters. Some homes are still on rates, based on the size of their home. And, whilst most people with a water meter would think twice before having a long shower or watering the lawn on a hot summer day, some of those who do not have a meter are happy to fill swimming pools in their gardens without giving a spare thought about it. The world is an unfair place, unfortunately.

![Giphy - ](https://media3.giphy.com/media/RKMZOBIzUkig6D5EFW/giphy.gif?cid=bb77869f8az9lqekopj7rinwx7kr1r6w40a14v5lquyrvkei&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)

> @"MediumRoastSteam"#p8424 what comes to mind is water meters. Big difference with water meters and smart meters is the price per litre of water doesn't vary either by time of day or peak demand. Fitted a water meter some years back and our water bill roughly halved. Easy to ballpark annual consumption and see if a water meter would make sense.

When we moved in 2015, they charged us £90/month for water. We did move to meter a year later. The water bill came down to £42/month. They have made it mandatory for most of the developments in our locality. But, what does smart meter to do with variable rates in the case of electricity and gas? Either every house hold goes variable or otherwise.

> @"LMSC"#p8428 But, what does smart meter to do with variable rates in the case of electricity and gas? We are heading to the point where the price per unit of electricity will depend on general level of demand - think Economy 7 on steroids. I can see people becoming nocturnal to keep their electricity bills down

> @"Systemic"#p8427 Big difference with water meters and smart meters is the price per litre of water doesn’t vary either by time of day or peak demand. I understand that. I was simply trying to make an analogy that there will always be winners and losers (not the best analogy, granted) :-)

As ever, those living near the margins will be hit hardest - pensioners etc.

> @"Systemic"#p8432 those living near the margins will be hit hardest - pensioners etc. A lot of us have moved or are moving in that direction. 😒

We are heading for a very bumpy ride cost of living-wise. We all get lulled into the status quo effect. We've got used/addicted to cheap money - mortgages/loans. I can remember in 1992 when interest rates hit 15% - had just taken out a second mortgage. Thankfully, it went back down to 5% very quickly - how people would squeal at mortgage rates of 5%.

Not So Smart Meters

DavecUK

I think if they keep on with all this, it becomes a war on the people….this is not a political thing either because it seems whatever colour of government we get in, it makes no difference. This is a structural issue for which those who can effect change simply don’t want to. We didn’t get into this energy situation overnight, same with water and railways etc.. It took 4 decades or more. Plus a civil service which had no real plan.

My friends know I have been worried about energy security for over 10 years. I simply cannot understand how we as a nation, allowed this to happen. We rely on gas from Russia (you couldn’t make it up) as if burning Russian gas is somehow better for Net Zero, than burning our own….and now we are surprised the price is being pushed up. Like a dealer Putin has made us addicted to the supply and now ups the price.

Something else, why is electricity also going up by the same amount?

I just read that although the rise is 49%, the expectation (admittedly this is the Sun) “for a typical customer paying by direct debit will be 28p per kilowatt hour (kWh) for electricity customers and 7p per kWh for gas”

Almost half of the UK’s current nuclear capacity is due to be decommission by 2025 and only one new plant, Hinkley Point C, is currently under construction. If no other new nuclear power stations are built, the UK’s nuclear capacity in 2050 will be a third of what it is today. (source UK Government)

I have to think….what on earth are we doing to ourselves and why?

Systemic

Giphy - music video flame GIF by Radical Face

Just bought a box of fifty - job sorted😂

DavecUK

Systemic You joke but this winter it might be cheaper to heat your house with old-fashioned paraffin heaters rather than gas.

LMSC The 1992 was exchange rate mechanism (ERM) crisis. George Sorsos vs Global Central Banks. Our BoE had to raise the interest rates 3 times to 15% to defend the pounds sterling. It still crashed out of the ERM.

I remember that and actually had a Mortgage at that time, the swiss cheese model that led to the disaster, all started back in 1990 when we signed up tot the ERM.

LMSC

The 1992 was the exchange rate mechanism (ERM) crisis. George Sorsos vs Global Central Banks. Our BoE had to raise the interest rates 3 times to 15% to defend the pounds sterling. It still crashed out of the ERM.

Different times, different reasons ! We are in for rough and extremely difficult times times. 😑

Systemic

Yep - ERM was Major’s europhile folly

LMSC

Systemic DavecUK

Correct. Those period were the darkest days for the asset markets and economies. Things were completely out of line. The currency rates including the ECU were misaligned. The ECU band was widened from 2.5% to 5% to 15+ (I think) against all major currencies - USD, Pound, Mark, etc - in very quick successions. When the authorities kept widening the ECU band, the big players smelled blood starting the famous speculative attacks on all currencies. The major central banks around the world just could not ward off the biggest speculators.

We should never have taken the pound into the ERM. That was a mistake.

The biggest worrying factor now is where are we headed? I do plenty of behavioural analyses of asset markets. The long-term utility prices trends just do not look good at all.

BlackCatCoffee

What is going on is madness. And as others have pointed out it is crazy given we have relatively large reserves of oil and gas. Whilst we do not rely on Russia a great deal, 2% I believe, it is still 2% too much.

We should be investing in natural gas and nuclear with urgency. Not only would this bring prices down it is also the only realistic way of bringing down carbon emissions quickly. Whilst I am for renewables, the technology still needs to mature and for boring tech reasons it is never going to be 100% of our energy mix. It is also indisputable that the use of natural gas has done many times more to bring down emissions than solar and wind so far.

Sadly the green movement are opposed to natural gas and nuclear expansion which is pure ideology.

LMSC

BlackCatCoffee Whilst I am for renewables, the technology still needs to mature and for boring tech reasons it is never going to be 100% of our energy mix.

It is a vicious circle :

financial resources - investments in skills building and technology innovation / advances - efficiency in related areas.

A lack of resources feed into other areas.

Covid and Brexit are taking us all down faster.

DavecUK

BlackCatCoffee I agree entirely, David. I believe that a properly planned and managed move to net zero is what we need. Destroying our economy is not the way to get there. Using the resources we have under our feet is….as long as we make and implement the plan whilst doing so.

We have 50 years of energy under our feet, so perhaps moving to net zero in 30 years, using the resources and money we make available by using home-grown is a far better way. Stifling our economy doesn’t seem sensible, especially as businesses are not protected at all by a price cap….

LMSC

DavecUK net zero

It is a global responsibility. It is great we are taking a leadership role and becoming a role model.

However, when joint responsibilities fall short and some countries are still opening fossil fuel plants, I can’t help think

why are we dragging ourselves into bigger mess ?
aren’t our net-zero efforts going to be futile ?
aren’t our loss some body’s gain ?

Like a lot of us, I am also not against net zero. I want it as much as every one else. But, hey, we are not a charity. I think some body said, charity starts at home. 😊

CoffeePhilE

It’s at times like this I’m kinda glad I’m not likely to still be here in 2050 to see what happens then.

Smart meters. Hmmm. I have metered water these days. Why? I wasn’t given any choice. It was mandatory. I’m not really upset as it’s much, MUCH cheaper, annually, than non-metered.

However, I have so far refused, point blank, to have a smart meter for gas or electricity. They haven’t pushed re: gas, though I was offered it. Maybe they figure as gas is supposedly being phased out in a few years and we’re all supposed to spend thousands on air-source heat pumps, etc, that there isn’t much point investing a fortune is smart gas meters.

But my electricity company pushed HARD. I lost count of how many letters they sent, but certainl;y,dozens. They were VERY carefully worded to strongly suggest, though not quite explicitly state, that it was mandatory. IT ISN’T. And until/unless legislation changes, it won’t be.

So, after ignoring countlss “please call us to arrange time …” letters, I finally got one giving the date their engineer would call to install it. Oh, hell, no. My reply was a phone call, and a recorded-delivery letter confirming, that they ARE NOT to fit one and that there is no way I’m going to agree to it until such time as legislation gives me no choice. And by the way, stop damn well harrassing me with deceitfully-worded letters every few weeks.

Finally, after being very insistent indeed on the phone, they agreed to note “not having one” on my file, and when I threatened legal action over their harrassing letters, to stop pestering me too.

Yeah, I saw the thing about variable pricing too. Also, about the smart meters changing to 30-min reporting unless you opt out.

All I want is to pay my damn bill. I do not want them monitoring my usage, 30 mins at a time, which is one reason why I refused the meter in the first place!

But, the “thin edge of wedge” principle will, eventually, apply, Laws will change and we won’t get a choice. Until that time, they can stick their smart meter somewhere that will require surgery and copious quantities of vaseline to retrieve and make them hesitant to sit down.

Alpesh

CoffeePhilE The cheeky sods lured my elderly father into smart meters by saying they were dated and had to be replaced or face the supply being cut off!

Doram

CoffeePhilE Finally, after being very insistent indeed on the phone, they agreed to note “not having one” on my file, and when I threatened legal action over their harrassing letters, to stop pestering me too.

Can you or anyone explain the reasons to not have a smart meter? I personally didn’t get one yet, but I think it is probably down to my high need to avoid closure (and maybe the fact they are pushing it at me, for free, makes me suspicious?).

I remember hearing some objection to them, and because I can get them any time - I never bothered. But if I think about it, I can’t come up with reasons for that. I don’t mind sending meter readings, but I don’t get any particular kick from sending them (and see the fact they don’t have to send someone over to read them every now and then a positive). Then there is the fact that they know how I am using energy, but why would I care? Is there any reasons I am missing?

Doram

DavecUK You might as well get a smart meter, because if you don’t, before all of us with smart meters get reamed in some way….you will be double reamed for not having one.

Thanks Dave. This is an argument for the smart meters. :-)

I know some feel strongly against getting them (e.g. CoffeePhilE), and were wondering what were the reasons for that.

Del_UK

I’ve been saying to people who have been asking me about battery storage that there’s no point unless you are out all day, soon it’ll be there is a point if you are in all day!

Demand pricing is already in place for many factories I do work for, some have been forced into shutting down production at various times during the day as the unit cost triples for them, which when they are drawing 1500+A that’s thousands of pounds extra cost for a few hours.

Pompeyexile

Cuprajake i’ve said this all along, as soon as you plug your fancy electric car in, ping your now on 40p a minuite charge,

Not true…

We have an EV and are on Octopus’s Go tarrif which means my electric is 5p kWh between the hours of 12:30am and 4:30am and standard 20 something pence per kWh for the rest of the time. I plug my car in and tell it to only charge at that time. It puts on 112 miles from my 7kw charger which is more than emough for running around every day. On a full charge I get about 280 miles. My other half goes into the office 2 to 3 times a week of a round trip of about 45 miles. A year ago we had a diesel Honda that did aprox 52 miles a gallon and diesel was about £1.21 a litre. It cost us £60 to fill it up. that was a year ago, diesel is a lot dearer now. Since going on the Go tarrif in December I am putting 112 miles on at a cost of £1.40 at time, so for 600 miles it costs me about £8.

True, Octopus like any other energy company could change that, and like all of them the standard day rate will no doubt go up, but like the hike in petrol or diesel there is nothing we can do.

We went on a smart water meter years ago and was told at the time we had a year to change our minds. Not to change the way we used water which would give us a true and fair comparison of how much more or less it cost us. It cost us nothing extra, so we kept it.

We have had a smart electric meter fitted but all that does is make you paranoid. Yes it means no more sending meter readings and that also allows them to know when we are plugged in between the hours of 12:30 and 4:30 so they can charge us the much cheaper rate. But the display in doors telling you how much you are using when you flick a light on or worse the kettle, I turned off. I don’t need something to tell me not to leave lights on in empty rooms or not to fill the kettle when I only want one cup of tea.

Cuprajake

They will do eventually once enough are on ev,

Its the old get a diesel car its cheap, economical. There now more than a petrol car.

hornbyben

Cuprajake I disagree. It would be too complicated to differentiate between electric car charging and other high draw appliances. For example while it’s slow you can charge an electric car from a standard 13amp socket.

I do agree that the running price for electric cars is going to have to go up as they increase their market penetration. As the tax on petrol/diesel is used to maintain the road infrastructure they will have to look for ways to get electric car drivers to contribute. More realistic is some sort of per road use charge.

In my opinion smart meters are necessary to give us a system that works. We don’t really have a shortage of electricity, but rather an issue with demand spikes. Real-time feedback could really help with this. For example, when you get a big spike such as when everyone starts cooking dinner, all the fridges, freezers and electric cars could automatically stop running (within certain bounds so your fridge/freezer is still cold), as they’re usually not time critical. This would really help smooth the demand.

Regarding cost, the high and low costs are what energy providers pay, the only difference with smart meters is that the information gives options (as opposed to just charging a flat rate that covers this). This might be variable pricing, or perhaps a home battery or car battery could charge when the electricity is cheap and then sell it back when it’s expensive. It’s a market economy, so companies will always do different deals. Companies don’t last if they lose money, so whether you do or don’t have a smart meter they will cover their costs and you can choose the model that best suits your needs.

Nightrider_1uk

Systemic

Then the price will rise at night as the demand has risen

LMSC

Nightrider_1uk We never had day time and night time rates, in places we lived!

Systemic

Nightrider_1uk Then the price will rise at night as the demand has risen

Yep. Supply and demand. Read yesterday about a plan to leech power from electric cars while they are charging (presumably at low demand times) and pay the car owner for the privilege. Nice to know there is a joined up energy strategy.

MediumRoastSteam

LMSC isn’t the night time rates designed so storage heater radiators could “recharge” in the night so it’s “fair”? Economy7 or something like that?

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