I'm still toying with the idea of getting a machine to go alongside my La Pavoni Europiccola, something that requires a little less input from me to get a good cup of coffee. The thing that's been on my mind these last few days is water quality and what I should be using. After looking at some of the water requirements from Rancilio and Lelit it seems that my tap water is not too far from the mark. I downloaded my local water info and have ordered a TDS test from Ebay. Is anyone able to offer any advice from the data in the link? [upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/DwoiT4y.png]

Average alkalinity is a little bit low but not terribly so. Other than that it's fine, still things in there you don't want like chlorine and aluminium (and traces of other things). A charcoal filter will at least help with the former. Not sure what you intend to do with the TDS meter, check it for consistency to see if it falls around min/max TDS as a way of approximating where all the other things might be? Probably won't be too successful at that.

> @"Rob1"#p11700 still things in there you don’t want like chlorine and aluminium (and traces of other things So I'm guessing that something like a Brita filter would be helpful?

Not sure. If Brita is just a carbon filer then yes, you don't want a softener really. Not that it would hurt but you'd increase sodium and lower hardness and you really don't need to.

On the Brita site it lists 3 elements of filtration: Superfine mesh retains coarse particles coming from pipes. Powerful Ion Exchange pearls block limescale build up, soften the water, help to protect appliances, reduce metals like lead and copper that might occur in old pipes. MicroCarbon pearls made from coconut shells lock away chlorine and other odour impairing substances in its millions of pores, deliver pure and fresh taste.

Do you have space to set something like an ro filter setup? As good as your water can be there will always be stuff in it you dont want, A basic RO system can be had for less than 100, and rodi will be the perfect base to add minerals too

> @"Cuprajake"#p11727 Do you have space to set something like an ro filter setup? There is probably space, but it's not my house!

Just watched a video by Mark at Whole Latte Love. He states that using a BWT filter jug means that you would never need to descale your espresso machine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZKKW5Bs51w&list=WL&index=7

@"Flat_Eric"#p11792 - ask him to move to London and report back after a couple of weeks 😉 What I’m saying is that all is relative. Put some soft/moderate hard water through and most likely it will do a good job for 4 weeks. Put some hard/very hard water through and you’d be lucky if the filter lasts 1.5 weeks under normal usage. If you have one , you can easily monitor the water TDS on a daily basis and check when it starts to fail.

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p11796 Four weeks is exactly how long the filter lasts. I live in a soft water area and my water quality is very close (but not exactly) to what is specified by Rancilio and Lelit. Therefore I'm thinking that if I monitor the TDS I could use my tap water in whatever machine I decide to purchase. I'm thinking that the addition of a Brita or a BWT filter jug would be an additional safeguard.

Water For Espresso Machine

Rob1

darkstefano I don’t know the recipes so can’t recommend any. Would say go for between 40-50mg/l alkalinity for ease.

prezes

I got myself one of those TDS pen meters and measured water from Osmio which came at 65ppm.

Am I right in thinking this is slightly too high ?

DavecUK

prezes I got myself one of those TDS pen meters and measured water from Osmio which came at 65ppm.

Am I right in thinking this is slightly too high ?

It depends when you measured it…..the concentration of the water in the supply pitcher increases as it gets used up, due to water rejected by the membrane being returned to the supply pitcher. The membrane has a rejection %,, plus the mineralisation filter adds some back.

So TDS would be at the highest if the internal RO storage tank had been filled by an almost empty supply pitcher, even if you refilled the pitcher, then drew water, the water from the tank was many times more concentrated than tap water before it was filtered and the TDS will be at it’s highest.

Will it scale the machine at 65ppm…no.

prezes

DavecUK thanks Dave. This was the main thing whether it will scale or not !

I measured my tap water which came at 350 /Anglian water report states 236/

The rejected water from Osmio is over 800 !

prezes

DavecUK just drew some water from the brew and steam boilers out of curiosity and got:

94ppm brew boiler

195ppm steam boiler

how does that sound? Any recommendations?

MediumRoastSteam

prezes - where those readings with the water cooled down to approx 25C or straight out of the group/tap?

The hotter the water, the higher the reading.

dutchy101

prezes

I’ve just done a test on my water (allowing it to cool).

94ppm TDS from service boiler

44ppm TDS from group

This is using tap water (450ppm TDS) filtered through the Zero Water jug and then remineralised with sodium bicarbonate. I drained the service boiler last 3 weeks ago

prezes

MediumRoastSteam

Temperature was about 77 degrees for steam boiler and 63 brew boiler.

will do again, let it cool down and report back

prezes

MediumRoastSteam measured again:

Doram it claims in the manual that it will offset the temperature but doesn’t seem to be doing it !

Doram

prezes Temperature was about 77 degrees for steam boiler and 63 brew boiler.

Here is the explanation:

"TDS meters use conductivity to measure total charged ions in water. Conductivity of ions in water depends on the water temperature. Ions move faster when the water is warm. Hence, the apparent conductivity is increased when the water has a higher temperature.

Nearly all modern TDS meters simultaneously measure the conductivity and the temperature and calculates what the conductivity would be at the standard temperature of 25°C."

(The second paragraph above probably relates to more expensive meters that can factor in the temperature. With the simple cheap ones you just need to measure at the right temperature).

DavecUK

prezes it claims in the manual that it will offset the temperature but doesn’t seem to be doing it !

Those Chinese…they fibbed!

Rob1

You can’t determine scaling potential from TDS readings. You need to know alkalinity and hardness (and what the alkalinity is from - usually bicarbonates). With low readings, and especially when you know the water has been through RO, you can say it’s pretty certainly not going to scale.

With regards to the service boiler, I assume this is after some use. Given the mineral content has increased with you will need to know alkalinity and hardness.

Cuprajake

Rob1

I tried to email but never got through

What’s test kit is the go to now adays.

I’ve just replaced all my to filters and membrane so want to check my water

Cheers

prezes

dutchy101 thank you.

Mine has been last drained on the 2/4 and due again this Saturday so probably why.

LMSC

Guys. as Rob said, the TDS isn’t helpful. Please get a drop kit and test the hardness and alkalinity each on 20 ml sample.

prezes

LMSC which drop kits are best to go for ?

dutchy101

Very true - I use drop kits, but was just posting my readings as a reference for Perez.

I know exactly what to do with reminseralising and frequency for draining now with the Zero, but will no doubt be back to square one when the Skuma arrives.

dutchy101

This is the one I use:

API GH & KH TEST KIT Freshwater Aquarium Water Test Kit 1-Count

prezes

dutchy101 thank you

Rob1

@Cuprajake I’m supposed to be informed if I get an email, I’ll have to have a look at it. ^^ this API kit is the test kit though.

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