Hi All, recently moved over from the coffee forums after I realised everyone had left, just wanted to see what peoples thoughts are on the zerowater jugs? https://zerowater.co.uk/pages/shop are they actually good enough to use in a high end coffee machine?

@"Mik3"#p12443 Welcome to the forum, yeah I think people like the Zerowater jugs, they definitely work. Some do like to remineralise so it won't scale but tastes better. @"Rob1"#171 will probably stop in to advise. I guess all the adverts on CFUK starting to hurt your eyes…plus not a lot going on there now. Mainly business spam, paid forum fluffers, and the one post BTC machine users. 😉

@"DavecUK"#p12457 think it was mainly the signatures of people like yourself saying you no longer used the forums that made me look elsewhere haha landed here with incredible timing for a deal on a new machine too so it’s already working out for the best! I previously had an under sink 6 stage RO system but don’t have the space for it here so looking for an alternate solution that requires no plumbing in / drilling through worktops without spending too much good to know, cheers

> @"Mik3"#p12469 without spending too much This is very relative. What’s your budget please ? Apart from ZeroWater , the other counter top ROs would also work well - Osmio Zero, Skuma water to name a few. The latter isn’t released yet I think, while the former will set you back by £450-£500 inc accessories. As Dave said, people are happy with ZeroWater. I won’t know what the frequency of filter change would be. We have some ZW users, who will be able to advise you.

@"LMSC"#p12471 yeah I have seen the osmio zero but was a touch on the pricey side at the moment as I also need a new grinder 😂 so far as budget it’s really as cheap as I can get but that will ensure the new coffee machine is cared for from day one. Was thinking the zerowater would be a good option as I can get a 2.8l jug (big enough to fill the water tank in the machine) and 4 spare cartridges for \~£80 currently, just conscious that a £40 jug might not be as good as it claimed? My old under counter fixed unit was less than £300 but I left it in my last house, the glass kettle I had for 5 years still had a mirror finish on the element so really looking for the best I can get without breaking the bank to keep my machine as clean as I can

@"Mik3"#p12481 Neither I know what your machine is nor the ZW. Of course, we understand the budget constraint. So, spend wisely. If we are spending Ks on a machine, it remains good for a long time assuming she gets good water and TLC. We also have to be aware of the frequency of filter change, the cost of filters and a temporary or a permanent nature of the water solution. The longer the duration, the higher the cost and more so, if l hard water. The ROs may also require frequent filter change if you live in a hard water area. Some of us have Osmio Zero; she gets softened water. The filter therefore lasts 1 year at least. We view the one-time outlay as worth every penny. We drink, cook and feeds the coffee machine. Edit : I think @"dutchy101"#56 uses the Zero Jug.

I'm not sure you'll get 2.8l of purified water in that jug from a single fill. The filtration media has quite a lot of resistance, I found that if the bottom got too full, flow would stop. It was good for about a litre a time from the 2.3L version. If I bought a Zerowater again, I'd go for a larger reservoir.

@"LMSC"#p12487 yeah unfortunately the water here is classified as hard, it’s another reason I want to ensure there is a good level of filtering prior to any of it going anywhere, conscious £60 every 4-6 months would be adding up quickly on top of the £450 “If you have a hardness level over 250 Calcium Carbonate then you may need to change the carbon block and membrane more frequently than every 6 months.” the water company tells me it’s 281 mg/l of calcium carbonate

@"MWJB"#p12491 good to know, thanks for the insight, I was thinking it meant 2.8l filtered but most likely it’s the jugs capacity then

I've been using the 2.8l zero jug for about 4 months & remineralising for coffee. I reckon the usable capacity is around 2.6-2.7l from filling my 5l water bottle. Luckily I live in a soft water area < 50mg hardness & the original filter is still going strong running about 10 litres a week through it. The only minor niggle is the cover over the spout. It doesn't open enough on its own when pouring so the water stream can be broad & if you manually open it won't lock into place fully & flips down when pouring. So I end up having to hold the dam thing open. I suppose I could remove it but I do like that it prevents anything dropping in the jug.

@"Mik3"#p12493 Do you have a whole house softener installed?

Zero water jugs

coffeealex

Sorry if this has already been answered, 2 questions re Zero water:

Zero water is NOT recommended for espresso machines WITHOUT remineralisation as espresso machines need some minerals to work correctly. Is this statement correct?
As zero water removes all minerals, what quantity per litre of Bicarbonate of Soda is needed to create an alkalinity buffer and not prevent corrosion/scaling?

CoyoteOldMan

coffeealex I would rephrase your first point more as “coffee needs some alkalinity (and arguably other ions) to taste at its best”. Adding some buffering compound also helps with any corrosion from DI water

Many people like an alkalinity between 40 and 60 ppm (CaCO₃ equivalent), which means adding 67 to 100 mg of NaHCO₃ for every litre of DI water. That will be ample to prevent corrosion; scaling will depend on whether you also add Calcium and/or Magnesium compounds to the water. If you don’t… no scale.

coffeealex

CoyoteOldMan

I think eventually I will go down your route of making a saline solution, and then adding it to zero water. This will make things easier in practical terms. Just a little confused at what is the difference between adding bicarbonate of soda or potassium bicarbonate?

MediumRoastSteam

coffeealex - I tried both and I can’t taste the difference. The reason behind is that coffee already contains potassium, so adding a bit more should not distort anything.

CoyoteOldMan

coffeealex In addition to MediumRoastSteam reply, two ‘practical’ differences:

Sodium bicarbonate is commonly available in supermarkets; potassium is easy to find, but not as easy. Both are very cheap.
If you use potassium, then instead of 67 - 100 mg/l you need to use 80 - 120 mg/l to get 40 - 60 KH

coffeealex

CoyoteOldMan Thanks. I take it 40- 60 KH is the generally accepted target levels to aim for. Does adding either sodium bicarbonate or potassium bicarbonate increase the GH level? Sorry if it sounds a stupid question. I am assuming no as magnesium or calcium carbonate do this.

coffeealex

CoyoteOldMan If you use potassium, then instead of 67 - 100 mg/l you need to use 80 - 120 mg/l to get 40 - 60 KH

I have ordered some scales and potassium bicarbonate. I am going to use zero water for the time being and then remineralise it with KHCO₃.~

Could I please check the two formulas. the one above is :

80-120mgl = 0.08 - 0.12 grammes per litre of zero water

There is also a bulk formula you mentioned in the past where you add 20ml of it to I think 5 litres? Could you just remind me what that is please of potassium bicarbonate?

Also does it matter that much whether you put 80mgl or 120 mgl or anything in between. I was going to use 100mgl per litre of zero water to keep it simple and easy to remember

CoyoteOldMan

coffeealex Correct. “Permanent” or General Hardness requires Ca or Mg (or other divalent ions, but they don’t scale - or at least not as easily) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DGH

SurreyAlan

I’ve had my machine a couple of months now and have been using Tesco bottled water but yesterday emptied it out and made the switch to water from the Zero, as someone who really doesn’t pick up all the flavours in coffee even to me this mornings coffee didn’t taste right, not very enjoyable with something missing.

I’m conversant with mm cm m etc and even gms and kilos but would 100mgs be 0.1 gm?

MediumRoastSteam

SurreyAlan I’m conversant with mm cm m etc and even gms and kilos but would 100mgs be 0.1 gm

You’ve got it spot on. 👍😊

Rob1

SurreyAlan what machine do you have and what did you empty?

dutchy101

I remineralise zero water with 64mg of sodium bicarbonate / litre of Zero Water.

I make up 5 litre batches at a time in an old Tesco Asbeck bottle. 320mg sodium bicarbonate to 5 litres. Works well as an easy recipe and tastes good

SurreyAlan

Rob1 it’s a profitec 400 so single boiler hx, the boiler is only 1.6l. The tesco ashbeck has been watered down with zero already but yesterday I took a lot of hot water out of the boiler along with lots of back flushing and just running it through the head so while there’s bound to be some tesco still there it must be very diluted. Will see how it tastes tomorrow.

MediumRoastSteam

SurreyAlan along with lots of back flushing and just running it through the head so while there’s bound to be some tesco still there it must be very diluted.

Backflushing will do nothing. The water gets pumped, hits the expansion valve and goes back to the tank :-) - If you want to recycle the brew boiler, then just draw water from the group. 👍

SurreyAlan

Comes out in the drip tray on mine,?

Rob1

If it’s a HX there’s no need to empty the boiler. If you’ve got 100mg/l Sodium bicarb then you’ve increased the alkalinity significantly over ashbeck.

MediumRoastSteam

coffeealex - the more you put in, the more alkalinity you’ll have. In the cup, it will mute acidity. 100mg/L is what I do. Keep it nice and simple indeed.

CoyoteOldMan

coffeealex Yep. All correct. 80 mg/l KHCO₃ will get you 40 KH and 120 mg/l will get you 60 KH. 100 mg/l is 50 KH. All are fine.

“my” concentrate is 1.60 grams of KHCO₃ in 400 ml water, then use 20 g (or ml) of this per litre of water to get 40 KH. The 400 ml is because I had a jar with a screw top that would hold that much, so scale it for whatever you are going to use - don’t make too much of it, or you’ll need months to use it (and probably end up throwing some away).

If you want to stick to 100 mg/l (50 KH), then use 2.00 grams in 400 ml of water, then use 20 g (ml) of concentrate per litre.

coffeealex

MediumRoastSteam going to do the same

Whats the bulk concentrated KHC03 formula where you use 20ml at a time please?

coffeealex

CoyoteOldMan Thank you for this. I know that you have to periodically flush the service boiler to prevent a build up of minerals. What would happen if you never flushed it? Would it increase the scalability?

CoyoteOldMan

coffeealex If the only thing you are adding to the water is bicarbonate, scale will never be an issue. However, at some point, corrosion may be… as bicarbonate turns to much more alkaline carbonate. And at some other point the (bi)carbonate will saturate the water and start precipitating, which can cause all sorts of problems from clogging to disgusting-tasting coffee.

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