Are there any of the above owners on this forum? I have just watched the Hoffman review. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ-ta6s931c Now, I am not his biggest fan but admit sometimes his topics are interesting. I am sure folks know, that Lyn Weber took over the company that made the HG One. This was a ground breaking hand grinder with a choice of 3 burr sets that eventually became one set (Mazzer 83mm). I owned one at outset and hated it! Anyway, I digress but eventually the 2 lads sold out, then slowly but surely other additions were added. Now, I have not tried any of them so am not able to sing the praises of or criticise any of them. I did find Hoffmans review interesting especially in light of severe criticism it has had in some quarters. Perhaps you could watch it, then form your own opinion of the review. For Niche owners (around 18 or 19 minutes) the two are compared

Maybe it was just me but I had to rewind to the part where he compares it to the Niche because at first I mistakenly thought he was saying the Weber shot tasted muddier and with more body which I was not expecting..!

I focussed on something else…he kept saying it's 2000 usd..but it's not, it's 2000 usd + Vat + shipping+ customs handling + import. Which I estimate to be 2540 usd + shipping or £2000 with shipping and customs handling charges. For that money, it would have to be brilliant, but it didn't sound like it was worth it, although it seemed to me that he couldn't bring himself to say that? I missed the grind times…did he comment on those?

@"DavecUK"#p15064 I watched this today too and you're right, he didn't flat out say he wouldn't buy it but think that's probably because the crap Weber gave sprometheus for blasting them. It felt in general like a well balanced review highlighting many downsides but still with a few pros for those wanting to spend their money on one. He did share the other reviews probably so that he could still stay on the fence a little. He has invested his own money in one of the other grinders so probably wants to stay on their good side. I liked the review though as clear enough that it's not worth its price when there are many other capable grinders, as he highlights with the Niche and what its founder has achieved that Weber can't quite do.

I thought he gave a balanced but a guarded statement. The clues were in Lagom P64 and praising Niche.

Yeah when you can nealry buy a p64 and a niche for the price of the weber it makes you think. Weber seem to have been able to hush most of the reviwers up. Id say stalling, poss miss alignment are quite big concerns

@"Cuprajake"#p15068 Paying 20% of that price for a Niche or a quarter of that to mod a major with SSP burrs is a no brainer, IMO.

Niche+Lagoom P64 will be a better buy. For conicals I feel that Variable speed is a hit and miss. The bigger difference is with the flats. Doesn't help that the motor they have installed is just not strong enough for light roasts which is the main reason to go variable speed rpm.

I thought the lack of a conclusion seemed a kop out on this one - it's like he laid all the groundwork for it but didn't want to get shit from Weber and end up being called Hofftard by them like poor old Sprometheous. I think that his aim was to give everybody enough info to decide for themselves, as he kept saying, but a review without a solid conclusion like this seems a bit wishy-washy. He doesn't need to slate it, but could go a little stronger and just say that for the money to his tastes it's not a buy and is overpriced. Also the Niche comparison thing again, it's nuts how good this thing is as keeps being the comparison point used for machines costly vastly more.

Weber Key

Cuprajake

About 2-£2300 imported with the added bits

tompoland

Boy, talk about fence sitting. Hoffman for Ambassador to Russia?

I love this guy and I love his videos. I’ve learned so much from him and bought my EG-1 and Kinu M47 Classic based on his “showdowns” and I could not be happier with them. In both of those cases his opinions were clear.

Can’t help but echo the thoughts of other in saying he’s taken a diplomatic route with this one. I still don’t know if he thinks it’s worth buying relative to other options. But he all but said it’s too expensive for what it is.

My guess is that he’s saying that the Niche is the best bang for bucks and the Lagom is a more direct competitor that’s better value for money due to being more versatile.

Does anyone else come to the same conclusion?

DavecUK

tompoland Does anyone else come to the same conclusion?

I read it exactly the same way Tom. I suspect he also felt anything negative would make the Key look overpriced and badly affect sales. He kept saying 2000 USD and ignored the 27% vat, import, customs charges, plus delivery.

Ernie1

I guess the peril of being a professional content creator is that your entire livelihood rests on the diplomacy of your content. I’m not saying they aren’t handsomely compensated for the videos they put out but I guess it’s tough to say what you really want to say sometimes.

I agree it would’ve been good to get a more clear-cut review but I also don’t blame him for sitting on the fence.

dfk41

I think with all these things, you learn more from what they do not say, rather than from what they do say. I doubt very much it will be on my wish list!

gotters

Was thinking about this and do recall something from the past where he was quite opinionated about a flavoured coffee drink, I think he knew the lady who had setup the business (which I think then failed) and she then got him on an interview and basically slated him for 2h to his face - all of which he took in very good grace.

She blamed him for killing the business dead (debatable but possible) and he kept saying how he didn’t want to be a gatekeeper for coffee and knew he had to be careful about what he said. This was before the pandemic I think so a good 3y back.

FadedFrontiers

Hoff always sold himself as independent with reviews since he wasn’t dependent on free review units etc., and I think part of his appeal at least initially was being scathing about things. But you can’t get away from how small the coffee world is and you don’t want to make enemies in the industry especially when you’re trying to make money from it, which is why he only really makes fun of Aldi espresso machines or £30 Krups grinders now. I definitely get the sense if this was created by unknowns like the DF64 he’d not have been so diplomatic.

As others have mentioned he’s also got a lot of people into coffee and just generally being more methodological with their approach which is fair, then again I find the hero worship and fact he has his own subreddit quite baffling.

Frothbewithyou

I have watched a lot of content of JH and this is quite negative. He tends not to be sensationalist and tries to be more measured and factual.

This seemed very negative and he used words like “flawed” and “I wouldn’t recommend” a lot. Weber are burying themselves recently bad press and overpriced faffy design.

I wouldn’t buy this over other mentioned devices in this thread.

tompoland

Frothbewithyou just read your post and having had time to reflect I think you are right. Essentially he is saying “look it’s OK but really for 2k I would have expected a lot better.”

This is a list, from memory, of design flaws that he clearly points out:
The collar that can’t be removed, the stalling of light roasted beans at low RPM, the potential for the burrs to jam if the grind adjustment dial is not put back in place properly, the long grind shaft with no support near the burrs making it easier for the burrs to be out of alignment, the need to replace the blind tumbler carefully so the “paperclip” is not damaged.

That’s quite a list for 2k plus VAT plus customs plus shipping.

LMSC

Hoffman’s reviews - good to watch, grasp necessary information and then we decide what’s right for us. He is a businessman and is going to do what’s correct for his business, while squarely aiming to keep his supporters happy. It’s the mass, which may get influenced. I am not sure the public has an appetite to buy a grinder priced at $2600 inc VAT, etc. They will be looking at a grinder priced at 15th or 10th of that at the most, unless they know what it takes to make a good cup. If they do, they are one of us! 😊

dfk41

I asked originally, if any forum members had bought one. I do not think anyone has admitted to it, so far. I have been bitten before in buying new to the market equipment. I know I bought an Evo but that is a little different as we all know @DavecUK so were sure that the machine arrived to the market fully tested. I can think of nothing more disheartening than buying something, only to find perhaps it is not as good as you hoped, then having to defend your choice whether you believe it or not. It is such a shame as Weber stuff is nicely designed usually and just about justifies their pricing. Be interesting to see how long it takes to produce the Mk 2!

Frothbewithyou

tompoland Yeah I think he’s conscious of his platform and if he was too slam it that would be bad for any viewer or person who had got one.
I also think business wise and viewership wise most of us are adults, who from his clear flaw and design dislikes can see for that money its a flawed first attempt that with the right attention to detail could in the future ( and after more iterations) be worth the money, if you have a lot of expendable income.
If you do not then here is the P64 review and the Niche I loved to look at.

You know what’s more telling to me is what the consumers in a community like this are doing and right now people with the expertise and money. Right now it seems they are in a holding pattern with grinders and that is saying a lot about what is currently top of tree in regards to performance and quality.

hornbyben

Personally I thought his review was reasonable. Like others have pointed out he listed the pros and cons very clearly.

The challenge with a definitive “is it worth it” is that it is heavily dependent on the means of the person making it. If I’m on minimum wage is probably think a niche isn’t worth it, when you can get similar results out of a good hands grinder. If I was a millionaire then the additional cost might well be worth it to have something stylish on the worktop.

dfk41

In my day, an opinion was an opinion and there was no pussyfooting around in case you hurt peoples feelings or did not want to run the risk of criticism. How many prospective purchasers have been put off by this review, and if so, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Frothbewithyou

dfk41 Outrage or hyperbolic content is a dim a dozen these days on various platforms.
People just want facts and to make their own minds up. The opinion is becoming less of a comodity for you to lean on unless you have the charisma to sell it.

Also I think he has never had a video to my recollection that is like “this is just plan bad” other than the one where he ate espresso aldi cheese and even then it was mild.

EasyRawlins

I’ve had a Key for four months. Before that a Niche. I get better coffee from the Key. I can also tweak the shots slightly with the adjustable rpm.

None of the problems reported on various forums, I wonder what the actual number of true complaints is and what is piling on.

With regard to the perceived flaws, none of those have occurred for me. I don’t see wobbling burrs or flexing drive shafts. I’m using lights roasts and grinding at 40 rpm with no stalling.

I like the unusual design, the narrow footprint and massive burrs.

Mine cost me £1500 as I was front of the queue when it was released. Arguments about whether it is worth three times as much as a Niche aren’t relevant, that could be applied to most premium items in whatever pursuits we choose.

tompoland

This is what a Key looks like when you season it outdoors on a warm dry day. Just a wee bit of static happening here.

tompoland

FWIW having seasoned the Key with 2kg of supermarket beans I’m now happier with the flavor although it’s still got some way to go before it matches the Livi which has the same burr set only not coated, and has had a couple more kilos through it.

Ezrly days for me but I’m liking the magic tumbler, no paperclip but with RDT and of course WDT,.

I’m not using the new bean feeder or the lid and I’m running the grind speed at midpoint using City roast depth beans with no concerns about pop corning. I have the bean feeder ready to fit but at this stage I’ve not had an issue with bean splinters flying out, other than a tiny odd bit.

I’m still amazed at how small this thing is.

tompoland

I wasn’t initially keen to try a Key but sadly the Livi (same burr set) which I like very much, won’t fit on my espresso bench once the Nurri lands and the Key does fit. So at this stage the Livi is parked in the roastery, usurped by the Key. If I can find a configuration hereby the Nurri and Livi can coexist on the same bench then it’ll be back in a flash.

I still share a little of Hoffmans concerns regarding the potential for the shaft to cause burr alignment issues in the long term, and I agree with him that its nuts that the collar can’t be removed.

But as far as workflow goes, I rather like it. His preferences are likely more nuanced than mine.

And it’s quite a design feat to fit such large burrs into such a small form. Plus the quality of the finish is superb.

Overall, I like it but I still prefer my Livi.

DavecUK

tompoland But as far as workflow goes, I rather like it. His preferences are likely more nuanced than mine.

Going back to this comment of 2 years ago…do you still like the workflow having used more grinders….as having a key, the workflow is one of my biggest 2 peeves about it.

Adrianmsmith

The angle the key has to sit at isn’t good for OCD.

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