> @"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p15060 They want the government to stop all new oil licences and consents. Ah, so they want prices to climb even higher for everything and old people to be cold in their homes….nice. Then when the lights go out, they will no doubt dance a merry jig as we go "Back to the 70s", except we won't have any petrol, diesel, or the professor with a flux capacitor to help us.. If we get to net zero this way, then we will have saved 1% of earths carbon emissions whilst the hundreds of planned coal fired power plants get built over the next 5 years or so. I think: * Japan is planning to build 22 * 240 under constriction or planned in china and so it goes on…I read somewhere the total figure worldwide could be 800 plants. So anything we do is insignificant. I suppose when our countries done for, they can go and protest in China and Russia

I think humanity is doomed, but our generation has not done nearly enough to try and slow climate change. Its older people own homes, meat eating pets, tumble dryers, outdoor hot tubs, fly multiple times per year, generally eat meat and diary. Then they use one of their wasteful SUVs to drive a few yards to Waitrose to buy some coriander and the Daily Mail. Yes, if I were young I would be pretty angry too.

@"Alexvs"#p15062 Agreed, people will start filling up every time they see availability. I don't see how these protests solve anything. We have to transition to low carbon/ renewable energy and it will take decades. More urgently we need to increase our resilience and autonomy. We should be making tough decisions like fracking for a set period to bridge the gap.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p15072 and get the nuclear program well under way.

Nothing will change. This government/parliament is so corrupt self centred. When the health minister and chancellor both have green cards, and playing the system so they dont put what they should in, i see no future for this country. Only way anything will change with them is if they can make money from it.

Government and folks running it are cut away from reality; they won’t understand what it means to get hurt - economically. They may not know what hunger is. A 5P duty cut on fuel, NI hike, … Seriously? 🙄 No one is against net zero. It is important. The technology and the economics of it aren’t there to support effectively. We can’t fix it in 5-10 years, after we collectively abused the environment for centuries. Why are we boiling the ocean, when our house is flooded?

I am a dinosaur. The earth has been around for billions of years where metamorphosing or evolution has always gone on. Despite the extreme views of the vocal mob, I do not buy into climate change as a concept, even though I understand that there will be many who wish to shout me down. Shouting me down still does not make them right. We have come through many periods of time. What caused the Ice Age I wonder in a time before technology beyond a flint knife existed? Yet still it happened. We life in a nasty time currently. With diversity and the minority able to emotionally blackmail the majority, mainly due the the success of social media. Let us hope that if folks object to what I say, we can all still remain friends and respect each others views

yes, the earth has undergone many climate changes of a huge nature over its existence, the point isn't about that though, it's about what we are doing that is accelerating it from the naturally occurring incidents (like meteor strikes or huge volcanic eruptions) and basically consigning the human race to a rotten future if we don't change our ways. you can believe what you want, but it doesn't make you right or worth listening to on the subject because what you are saying is yet more rubbish that is being driven by this idiotic culture war.

@"gotters"#p15116 No offence taken matey.......what the view like from up there?

@"dfk41"#p15117 I wanted you to take offence, you are spouting drivel.

@"gotters"#p15118 But you did not offend me! Nor have you explained your point of view, but perhaps I can save you some time here as I doubt I would read it. So, to sum up: You are allowed to peddle anything you like in the name of climate change of the good of the world as you perceive it, and if I hold a view that is not the same as yours it is drivel. Ah, democracy working at it's best again

Climate change and Energy Security

LMSC

drdre89 Why do think so ? Could you elaborate your point of view please ? I am assuming you have read all the posts. Please scroll up, and spend some time, if you are free, reading the links I posted as well.

DavecUK

cengland117 Your last paragraph, if true, effectively confirms the futility of science and indeed protest.

I actually believe the reality is that whilst we have oil and gas that is extractable at a cost that is acceptable….the world will continue to burn it for as long as it can, in ever increasing quantities. We have seen the same with fishing and the rain forest. There is one sea where they fished everything out and no one earns a living from it any more. Endangered species are still hunted and eaten. Out of season fruit and vegetables flown 1000s of miles. We know it’s wrong but most people don’t care. As long as they are getting their smashed Avacado on Toast, before going out to glue themselves to the M25.

What % of people do this

Our only hope is to make it cheaper and easier to make the right choices. Otherwise the environment will always come last.

gotters

LMSC to a point I go along with what you say, but we’ve hit a point where everybody thinks their view is important on things they are clueless about, we are at peak Dunning & Kruger effect I suspect amplified by social media and echo chambers.

you don’t need balance on every argument, when there is a story on the news about drink driving at xmas you don’t get people on saying they think they should be allowed to do it, you don’t need to hear from nutters claiming phone masts are giving them covid after Chris Witty says get your jabs - we are literally tying ourselves in knots to appease utter pillocks a lot of the time under the banner of ‘polite and civil discourse’

some views are just so incredibly stupid that sure people can have them, but as you can tell I’m not really interested in listening to them or giving them airtime.

hornbyben

gotters the only issue with this approach is that it makes things worse not better. Most people make decisions based on emotion and then find facts to suit, rather than being objective. Once you’ve psychologically committed to an idea it can be very hard to change. I remember reading a journal article (apologies I can’t find the source) where they had people state an opinion, they then presented evidence that proved their initial position was wrong and recorded how many people changed their mind (this wasn’t religion or politics). The really interesting point was that if you just thought your opinion most people were receptive to the new information, if you spoke it out load then you were less receptive, if you wrote it down and made it public people were very resistant to changing their opinion. It’s very hard on the sense of self to change an opinion.

Being insulting, or saying people who don’t believe in climate change (or any other well evidenced topic) are idiots doesn’t make them change their mind. It entrenches them further, makes it even harder for them to change their position, and makes them more likely to seek out echo chambers. It might make you feel smug and better them, but doesn’t move anyone into a mutually acceptable position.

Life doesn’t have to be black and white, you don’t have to be in camp A or camp B, for or against. You can treat others with respect. I think you should state you don’t agree, provide evidence as to your position, challenge their evidence etc, but it can be done respectfully. At the end of the day life is about compromising and finding a way to all live together that makes it better for everyone.

LMSC

hornbyben Couldn’t have explained better. The thing is it doesn’t cost us a penny to be nice, respectful and helpful - where and if possible.

DavecUK That’s a lot of information to digest. Some of it have gone above my head.

😊

DavecUK

I had a look at the Greenpeace site today, I admit it’s been a while. Causes of climate change are

Natural Processes/Cycles (admittedly not mentioned by Greenpeace at all)
Energy Generation
Food production
Transportation - cars, buses, trains, trucks, ships and planes, (unless electric and charged with renewable energy)
Deforestation
Powering industry
Plastics and waste (I’m going to broaden that to all synthetics)
Fertilisers specifically

I’m not sure how things would actually pan out if we significantly reduced all the above activities….I suspect it would not be good for the UK.

Also as far as Nuclear energy is concerned, the Greenpeace view is:

Nuclear power

Nuclear power is touted as a solution to our energy problems, but in reality it’s complex and hugely expensive to build. It also creates huge amounts of hazardous waste. Renewable energy is cheaper and can be installed quickly. Together with battery storage, it can generate the power we need and slash our emissions.

Of course they double down on battery storage because Nuclear is not wanted and the statements about amounts of hazardous waste and expense are not accurate. Renewable energy is quickly stated+battery storage. This is true, renewable sources have to have energy storage, or you still have to use fossil fuels (fact).

Vistra finished Phase II expansion of its Moss Landing Energy Storage Facility in California, the company announced Thursday, adding 100 MW/400 MWh to the world’s largest battery facility.

The facility is now storing power and supporting the California grid, when needed, with a total capacity of 400 MW/1,600 MWh.

This sounds absolutely fantastic…but the reality is 22 acres of battery storage occupying a 107 acre complex with a total output of 1,600 mWh

Our UK minimum demand in the middle of the night averages around 23GWh, and thats every hour (as I am writing this the UK is using 32 GWh)!!!

https://grid.iamkate.com/

This means to satisfy our demand with no wind or solar for 12 hours will require an average sustained 28GWh. This means 250 Vistra facilities. This will give us a conservative amount of our nightly energy should there be No wind or Solar. Otherwise the lights start going out, ventilators stop operating, trains stop moving etc.. As the Vistra site probably cost 4 billion by now, we’d need to spend 1 trillion and occupy 0.25 million acres of the UK with batteries.

Our installed capacity of AGR Nuclear reactors is almost 8 GWh in 7 plants, meaning 28 plants could actually provide for our requirements over that 10 hour nighttime period at a cost of 616 billion

As you can’t really turn these plants off just divert the steam….you would only need a very limited renewables operation to provide the remaining extra power during the day. of course if it’s a gloomy day and the wind isn’t blowing….out go the lights!.

You can check this information…it’s all factual and proves battery storage+renewables cannot possibly be the answer, due to energy density and capacity of such a system.

It does seem a Nuclear program is all we are left with, what do we think?

DavecUK

LMSC That’s a lot of information to digest. Some of it have gone above my head.

Which is the problem, when on the radio, head of Ecotricity glibly states renewables with battery storage, when challenged about the storage issue. Even the radio presenter can’t challenge it without significant research…so he gets away with it, and stating nuclear is very expensive.

it’s all great when they say we have 450MWh of battery installed…but that’s for a single hour….not the 24h even a small power station can pump that out. The bigger lie is you have that installed capacity, but 15-20% of it can’t be used and the batteries capacity decrease with age and cycles…eventually requiring replacement (10-15 years).

And the damage to the environment making those batteries…..

LMSC

DavecUK Technology becomes obsolete quickly. The thing is renewables will mature, may be in the next 10 years. It is very expensive and not affordable at this juncture. The experience is mixed and still costs a decent annual outlay. I think I mentioned before. I met some one, who is knowledgeable in this area.

He gave me 3 cases of heat pump installations costing £15-£20K for 3 bed house. He said it still can’t provide 100% energy and the owners have to rely on suppliers.

One had to pull out the installation and lose the investment
The other two are not self sufficient and pays £1K a year for up keeping

I called a loft insulation surveyor - free. He spent 3 hours, said the loft insulation is good except some pockets that may benefit from a top up. He said it will cost £2.5K, asked me not to pay and do it myself for a few hundred. I felt so bad, he refused payment as he will get paid by the loft insulation company. All I could do was make him a nice cup of coffee from Evo. We chatted a lot about renewable. He said wait for at least 5 years for the tech to mature. He said, we will be lucky if we get to that state in 5!

DavecUK

LMSC Technology becomes obsolete quickly. The thing is renewables will mature, may be in the next 10 years.

Even if renewables become almost free….they cannot provide for energy needs 24×7 due to the inability to store sufficient power. There is nuclear, but people don’t want it…so they talk about fusion, but when is that going to be available 20-40-100 years.

Unfortunately nuclear was tainted by Chrenobyl, Winscale, 3 mile Island and Fukishima Daichi. technology has moved on a lot since the first 3, and risk is very low now, especially if certain tech is chosen. I personally feel Nuclear is the only answer, without it, the use of fossil fuels will continue.

The really hard job is then persuading the world to give up fossil fuels….I wouldn’t even know how we can start persuading them to do that, unless it’s cheaper. Here’s a thing to think about, if the UK Europe and America met the net zero targets….what would happen to the price of oil and gas, it would become so cheap that many countries would absolutely suck the stuff up with abandon as they build their economies?

I’ve yet to see a cogent, guaranteed and clear plans for all of this stuff.

LMSC

DavecUK Even if renewables become almost free….they cannot provide for energy needs 24×7 due to the inability to store sufficient power.

I don’t think I understand the storage part well.

We don’t need a common storage place, do we? If I install a heat pump,
the storage becomes an integral part of the unit, unless it gets transmitted to a provider, who in turn supplies the energy to me - very inefficient if this is the case.

Chernobyl was a human mistake. Why blame it on nuclear power?

People have a short memory, Dave. We are good in remembering only the bad. We conveniently forget the root cause and definitely we won’t remember anything, which is good.

DavecUK

LMSC It’s the grid level storage I’m talking about…jsut can’t be effectively done with batteries and we don’t have any other effective grid scale technologies. Today all excess energy is either diverted to earth or wind turbines are simply feathered. If you install a heat pump, no you don’t need storage, but they do work better when there is constant power from the grid.

Chernobyl, yes it was a human mistake, but the RBMK reactors were a terrible design for 2 reasons:

No containment Building
Positive void coefficient

Both things that are never done today, especially positive void coefficient, or Positive temperature coefficient.

LMSC

DavecUK Thanks! Makes sense.

DavecUK Today all excess energy is either diverted to earth or wind turbines are simply feathered

What a waste?

DavecUK

LMSC What a waste?

It’s pretty rare to short out excess power, usually they allow the voltage to rise or droop. Now we’re 230V (shh not really we’re still 240V) and the limits of high and low voltage were raised, its a bit easier for them. Mainly they send signals to gas and coal stations asking them to reduce power and nuclear to bypass the turbines. With wind, I think they feather some of them, so they don’t spin. With solar, it’s a little harder.

Perhaps the ultimate solution for humanity will be a Dyson Sphere, perhaps there are not as many black holes as we think, and they are actually Dyson spheres of highly advanced civilisations… the ultimate renewable???

LMSC

DavecUK

Giphy - Sign Road GIF by Glass Animals

drdre89

Everything in the world needs to be blamed on climate change, Russia, covid and Trump.

If you don’t then you are a white supremacist fascist.

All hail our lord and saviours Greta Thunberg and the mainstream media for keeping us safe and informed with the complete truth. They would never lie to us.

LMSC

drdre89

I’m sorry mate. Appreciate your response. However, your crisp response has gone way above my grey cells! 😂

If you can, please explain to us in an easy to understand language. 😊

It’s fine to have a different view. But, we would appreciate the reasoning behind it, while at the same time being nice and not hurtful to others are equally important.

Happy Easter everyone!

drdre89

LMSC Whatever the mainstream media tell you, think the opposite. Do your research, become a critical thinker and question everything the media are telling you.

Otherwise, take your jibby jabby boosters 💉 every 4-6 months, wear 3 face diapers, stay socially distant and don’t ever ever question the narrative. Let’s all be good little 🐑 🐑🐑

LMSC

drdre89 Whatever the mainstream media tell you, think the opposite. Do your research, become a critical thinker and question everything the media are telling you.

I’m afraid we still haven’t heard your reasoning. Scientists are not a media.

I don’t want get started on Covid. My girl works as a doctor at NHS. I know the story. 😊

There is a proverb about Cat’s thinking when she/he closes the eyes

Giphy - d&d horror GIF by Hyper RPG >

drdre89

LMSC I’m sorry but it had to be done in this climate change thread … how could it not ? 😂

LMSC

drdre89

😁

Giphy - Bored Come On GIF by Make it Move

😂

drdre89

LMSC You will awaken to the truth by yourself in your own time. No one is going to convince you of anything over an internet forum. Until then, enjoy life, enjoy coffee ☕️

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