• Grinders

  • Niche Zero - One Year in Review

MWJB lack of clarity claims made for conicals are more espresso related,

This is probably a stupid question. The cup is already concentrated. If I am drinking as an espresso, is it possible to delineate clarity? I thought one can’t!

I am defining clarity as an ability to separate (detect) the different flavours

We have experienced folks here, who have / have had both conical and flat. They may also chip in and explain what clarity is for them, and how they could detect it in such a thick liquid. This will be an educational for a lot of us here.

Thx

      LMSC You need somehow to come to a consensus of what separation (as opposed to identification) of flavour is/it’s threshold (a glance at any thread on a bag’s tasting notes is informative here). Difficult when everyone is in their own little bubble & not sharing the experience of the same coffee. Scott Rao made an interesting post on Instagram the other day saying that when discussing ‘clarity’ not enough mention was made of accompanying astringency…everyone’s preferences and choices are their own prerogative but an upgrade that simply swaps one malfunction for another is not on my agenda.

      I do make espresso, but it’s not a subject I talk about, just because it’s so hard to establish datums (grind size difficult, grind distribution impossible for most, extraction expensive in terms of filters) and because most people are making a drink of little interest to me personally. So I hope people chip in, without bringing any baggage and can provide some objective thoughts. Personally, if I don’t like a shot so much, I usually make a small adjustment for the next. Worst case scenario, it only takes a couple of minutes to make another. It’s a fast, easy way to make a small amount of coffee, analysing it has no interest for me and “nice” trumps “clarity”.

          MWJB consensus of what separation (as opposed to identification) of flavour is/it’s threshold

          I am not sure I understood the difference between the separation vs the identification of flavours.

          There are no fixed set of rules to identify or separate the flavours, IMO.

          I look at it as follows:

          Fruity notes - example berries, citrus - are what we get as brightness, acidity, astringency, body, mouthfeel, taste when we drink.

          Certain flavours like blueberry and vanilla are what we some time get as an aroma or feel when we drink. They can be subtly present as a taste. These are likely to be overpowered by other flavours like berries.

          Flavours like Chocolate, floral, sugar are mainly after-taste.

          I don’t have an instagram account to read Scott Rao’s article

          We don’t find serious / educational discussions focussing objectively on flavours, notes and so on.

          I think we have deviated from the main thread of this post. I hope people don’t mind. May be, @DavecUK can cull out all posts related to notes, clarity and body into a separate thread. 😊

          Thx

              LMSC

              Personally, I can detect flavours in espresso if they are there to detect. When I buy from roasters I buy from those who have a track record of delivering the tasting notes on the bag - this is going to be a matter of subjectivity, a roaster will either taste the same things as you or they won’t. Tasting notes can come from either the roasted coffee brewed as a filter and espresso, or from the green coffee roasted and cupped, or possibly just from the importer’s tasting notes. If it’s the latter two, you may not find the coffee tastes the same as roasted by your roaster whatever brew method and equipment you use.

              I don’t experience a lack of clarity using conicals vs flats. If you want greater clarity then dial in for a greater yield. That said I usually have a 1:2.5, but really will adjust for the best flavour balance. I have no interest in ‘accentuating acidity’ by pulling shorter and shorter shots - a trend I imagine was started by some barista going for the world championship that everybody wanted to copy - and I’m not against going as high as 1:5 if that’s what tastes the best.

              I remember taking part in an LSOL on the old forum, and a bunch of the people using EKs, Mythos’, Royals and Flat monoliths were going on about flavour notes that turned out to not even exist on the bag, while I was nailing 3 or 4 out of 5 with a Pharos (or maybe it was a Lido E at the time) pulling to a 1:3, and at a 1:3 it’s still plenty concentrated to enjoy for the body you get in espresso. If I were determined to pull everything as a 1:2 for some reason, I might have a different opinion, but it would be a stretch to complain about the grinder if I’m not willing to adjust parameters to get the best shots.

                  LMSC Fruity notes - example berries, citrus - are what we get as brightness, acidity, astringency, body.

                  Certain flavours like blueberry and vanilla are what we some time get as aroma or feel when we drink.

                  Flavours like Chocolate, floral, sugar are after-taste.

                  Fruit notes can describe an acidity e.g citric, but they can also describe actual flavour (as in a combination of aroma, sweet, savoury, bitter and sour). I had a Rocko mountain reserve that tasted very clearly of Strawberries, I’ve had very obvious blueberry and apple notes too, as well as lime. I remember the Rock mountain specifically because I almost broke my wrist grinding it in the Pharos. These flavours would be described as acidic and sweet - as fruit tends to be - in a way that was so similar to the fruit described that your memory tells you that’s what you’re tasting. In the same way, I taste Banana in Jack Daniels because of Isoamyl acetate.

                  Floral notes can be aromas and up-front, rather than present in the aftertaste. Something like “tea” notes could be astringency and aroma. Chocolate can be used to refer to body as well as bitterness or sweetness. You can get chocolate from the roast too.

                    Rob1 track record of delivering the tasting notes

                    This says it all. A lack of it sends every one chasing a wild goose! I agree, notes are very subjective. I do think finding notes / flavour which are not mentioned in the bag is likely to be a brew / espresso malfunction, unless we think the roaster could have also failed to notice them.

                    Yes, fruity notes / flavour are also flavour that we taste. Dark chocolate is a good example of a mild bitterness that we can get as after taste. In medium or medium dark bags, for instance, chocolates and fudge can enhance the cup as rich, creamy and full-bodied cup. One can also get these flavours mixed with milk and have often found them lingering after-taste. Similarly, floral.

                    Thanks for your detailed thoughts on this interesting area of coffee

                    • Rob1 replied to this.

                        LMSC Identifying specific flavours will always be a bit vague, e.g, sweetened rhubarb/cranberry/redcurrant/hibiscus might all overlap to a point as “tart red fruit” where they might all score a hit on the identification.

                        Separation would be an agreement on a more specific narrowing down of which one (in that particular brew method).

                        To make sense of any perceptions you have to have a framework in order to categorise of what is being reported.

                        Body/mouthfeel & flavour are separate.

                        Blueberry is really pretty rare, often in Ethiopian naturals.

                        Citrus is pretty rare too, but most easily confused with under-extraction if vague. A mandarin is very different to a grapefruit, or bergamot. Anyone who has eaten any of these fruits will not confuse them.

                        Chocolate I rarely find in coffee, but say I do find dark choc in maybe a Bolivian it’s there on the palate (not just aroma or after taste), there’s maybe fruit, like green apple (malic acidity) there too.

                        Maybe ‘aroma’, ‘on the palate’ & ‘aftertaste’ need separating?

                        Floral, is very rare.

                        Maybe suggest a coffee you are familiar with & drinking now & I’ll try it?

                        “Lack of clarity” is one of the features popularly attributed to the Niche, I see no reason to shy away from it.

                        • LMSC replied to this.

                            MWJB

                            MWJB Maybe suggest a coffee you are familiar with & drinking now & I’ll try it?

                            “Lack of clarity” is one of the features popularly attributed to the Niche, I see no reason to shy away from it.

                            Interesting Mark! I would like you to use Niche to make some espresso and V60/Clever, and see if you can address the “lack of clarity” and separation of notes. Sure, these exercise would require sustained experimentations with a lot of bags. You any way drink light roasts. I think you may address this lack of clarity criticism and record them on your logs. Members will learn a lot from these for sure!

                            • MWJB replied to this.

                                  @MWJB If you could please send your address at the email address below,
                                  I will send you some coffee!

                                  I have some coffee of one of the bags — it will be like a taster bag - left in our freezer. That’s out of stock. This has blueberry, blackberry and vanilla as notes. It should be ok for a few shots / pour overs. I think you should try! 😊

                                  I will send another one along with this!

                                  LMSC That’s a very kind offer, I’m happy to buy the coffee (I have no suitable beans on hand and need to get some anyway).

                                  I can’t really address any issues on clarity and I don’t have anything else to compare to, on a day to day basis other than the Wilfa, which isn’t practical for espresso and both are a total faff for constantly switching from V60 to Clever, so it would be V60 only. (But as I said earlier, I don’t think the conical/clarity issue affects anything other than espresso).

                                  • LMSC replied to this.

                                      LMSC This says it all. A lack of it sends every one chasing a wild goose! I agree, notes are very subjective. I do think finding notes / flavour which are not mentioned in the bag is likely to be a brew / espresso malfunction, unless we think the roaster could have also failed to notice them.

                                      Just cup the coffee and see if it tastes remotely like anything on the bag. If the roaster mentions brew methods and describes different tasting notes for espresso and brewed then you should be able to get to them or at least understand why the descriptions are there.

                                      Dark Arts always delivered for me. There was one coffee described as “shrimp cocktail”, I trusted they’d roast properly and I thought at least they’d be weird and boozy even if I didn’t get the exact flavour - to my surprise I pulled a shot and immediately got the reference, and remembered how the little foamy sweets looked from when I last saw them in a pick and mix thing as a kid. I suggest finding a roaster that matches your tastebuds if you’re struggling a lot or feeling dissatisfied with what you’re getting.

                                      • LMSC replied to this.

                                          MWJB

                                          Unfortunately, I am not drinking any light / medium light bags at the moment. They are all medium roast from Django - like Santa Ana. This is good, but already sold out.

                                          I am currently looking at Foundry Roasters’ Kabyiniro Rawandan, Jairo Arcila Columbian, Columbian Luis Anabal. All of them are medium roasts with a cup score of 88 - 88.5.

                                            Rob1 Just cup the coffee and see if it tastes remotely like anything on the bag. If the roaster mentions brew methods and describes different tasting notes for espresso and brewed then you should be able to get to them or at least understand why the descriptions are there.

                                            The roasters’ brew method is something I always look at to understand what to expect.

                                            Haven’t tried Dark Arts. I will take a look. Thx

                                            Rob1 suggest finding a roaster that matches your tastebuds if you’re struggling a lot or feeling dissatisfied with what you’re getting.

                                            I find Blackcat, Django, North Star, Crank House are good and deliver what’s written on the bag. I have heard good things about Foundry.

                                            The whole discussion on clarity, notes and flavour is more about understanding what coffee drinkers thought of them objectively, how they see it, their experiences and so that the members can learn / benefit from them!

                                                LMSC I’ve got this as got in sent instead of Chelbesa. With my limited tastebuds found it very pleasant and drinkable but nothing exceptional. Sweet hazelnut maybe aftertaste, very light tea like mouthfeel

                                                mailto:kafar@btinternet.com

                                                • LMSC replied to this.

                                                    prezes Thanks for the feedback. I spoke to them. They said it is a new crop, not cupped formally and their cupping score would be about 85. They did tell me it is ok as espresso but good for brewing!

                                                      It was @DavecUK comprehensive review of the NICHE that convinced me to buy it. I’ve not regretted it. That said I’m open minded and also have the flat burrs of the GEVI for pour over. That said I disagree with all the negativity about Lance. I think he’s a genuine guy and he’s always responded to my questions sensibly and reasonably. He’s working withv GORILLA on a new burr set for the NICHE.. which I’m awaiting with interest.

                                                        Grahamsphillips He did mention the Gorilla Burrs for the Niche…it will be interesting to see if they do actually make a difference. I personally do believe Mazzer make a very nice Conical burr, I think Lance held a slightly different view to me…but I’m open minded.

                                                        He also felt the Niche might be better if it ran slower, which is also interesting, because when I did my voltage tests, the Niche would run down at 208V, at which point motor torque became a problem, especially for light roasts, and chamber clearance wasn’t as good. However, watching some of the small motorised Conicals and testing some myself, some do have to run on for a while to clear, so perhaps that’s a sacrifice worth making **if it can improve grind quality……**So I might end up doing a bit of testing…….If I can get some modified internals so I can slow it down and not loose torque. Perhaps there is some mileage on a Standard and Lo speed model Niche Zero…who knows?

                                                        Lance said he might try to do some tests using an appropriate speed controller, my fear was, he would lose a lot of torque with variable speed, so may have to limit tests to medium beans….If he does, I will be interested to hear about his findings.

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                                                            Grahamsphillips and DavecUK Interesting dimension you are bringing Dave. It opens a new world of possibilities in this niche market segment.

                                                            How would it impact light and medium light then ?

                                                            Would Niche then have a choice of Burrs set?

                                                                  LMSC It’s simply an idea at the moment in the mind of Lance and myself…in fact he might well be further ahead in his thinking than me. Who knows how it would impact light and medium light, until someone tests it. Lance is the one talking about Gorilla Burrs and I guess it will be down to people to buy them independently and fit them to the Niche if they want to. The Gorilla Burr idea is an independent one from Lance and not yet tested.

                                                                  I think you are looking at the finish line and no one is in the starting blocks yet.

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