LMSC That’s a very kind offer, I’m happy to buy the coffee (I have no suitable beans on hand and need to get some anyway).
I can’t really address any issues on clarity and I don’t have anything else to compare to, on a day to day basis other than the Wilfa, which isn’t practical for espresso and both are a total faff for constantly switching from V60 to Clever, so it would be V60 only. (But as I said earlier, I don’t think the conical/clarity issue affects anything other than espresso).
LMSC This says it all. A lack of it sends every one chasing a wild goose! I agree, notes are very subjective. I do think finding notes / flavour which are not mentioned in the bag is likely to be a brew / espresso malfunction, unless we think the roaster could have also failed to notice them.
Just cup the coffee and see if it tastes remotely like anything on the bag. If the roaster mentions brew methods and describes different tasting notes for espresso and brewed then you should be able to get to them or at least understand why the descriptions are there.
Dark Arts always delivered for me. There was one coffee described as “shrimp cocktail”, I trusted they’d roast properly and I thought at least they’d be weird and boozy even if I didn’t get the exact flavour - to my surprise I pulled a shot and immediately got the reference, and remembered how the little foamy sweets looked from when I last saw them in a pick and mix thing as a kid. I suggest finding a roaster that matches your tastebuds if you’re struggling a lot or feeling dissatisfied with what you’re getting.
Unfortunately, I am not drinking any light / medium light bags at the moment. They are all medium roast from Django - like Santa Ana. This is good, but already sold out.
I am currently looking at Foundry Roasters’ Kabyiniro Rawandan, Jairo Arcila Columbian, Columbian Luis Anabal. All of them are medium roasts with a cup score of 88 - 88.5.
Rob1 Just cup the coffee and see if it tastes remotely like anything on the bag. If the roaster mentions brew methods and describes different tasting notes for espresso and brewed then you should be able to get to them or at least understand why the descriptions are there.
The roasters’ brew method is something I always look at to understand what to expect.
Haven’t tried Dark Arts. I will take a look. Thx
Rob1 suggest finding a roaster that matches your tastebuds if you’re struggling a lot or feeling dissatisfied with what you’re getting.
I find Blackcat, Django, North Star, Crank House are good and deliver what’s written on the bag. I have heard good things about Foundry.
The whole discussion on clarity, notes and flavour is more about understanding what coffee drinkers thought of them objectively, how they see it, their experiences and so that the members can learn / benefit from them!
Please a look at Django’s Chinese Coffee! I was looking at it last week. It is a light / medium. Haven’t bought it yet.
https://www.djangocoffeeco.com/products/china-gui-ben?variant=42481443733760
There is a 30% deal going on — please check the other thread for the discount code. It looks interesting though.
LMSC I’ve got this as got in sent instead of Chelbesa. With my limited tastebuds found it very pleasant and drinkable but nothing exceptional. Sweet hazelnut maybe aftertaste, very light tea like mouthfeel
mailto:kafar@btinternet.com
It was @DavecUK comprehensive review of the NICHE that convinced me to buy it. I’ve not regretted it. That said I’m open minded and also have the flat burrs of the GEVI for pour over. That said I disagree with all the negativity about Lance. I think he’s a genuine guy and he’s always responded to my questions sensibly and reasonably. He’s working withv GORILLA on a new burr set for the NICHE.. which I’m awaiting with interest.
Grahamsphillips He did mention the Gorilla Burrs for the Niche…it will be interesting to see if they do actually make a difference. I personally do believe Mazzer make a very nice Conical burr, I think Lance held a slightly different view to me…but I’m open minded.
He also felt the Niche might be better if it ran slower, which is also interesting, because when I did my voltage tests, the Niche would run down at 208V, at which point motor torque became a problem, especially for light roasts, and chamber clearance wasn’t as good. However, watching some of the small motorised Conicals and testing some myself, some do have to run on for a while to clear, so perhaps that’s a sacrifice worth making **if it can improve grind quality……**So I might end up doing a bit of testing…….If I can get some modified internals so I can slow it down and not loose torque. Perhaps there is some mileage on a Standard and Lo speed model Niche Zero…who knows?
Lance said he might try to do some tests using an appropriate speed controller, my fear was, he would lose a lot of torque with variable speed, so may have to limit tests to medium beans….If he does, I will be interested to hear about his findings.
Grahamsphillips and DavecUK Interesting dimension you are bringing Dave. It opens a new world of possibilities in this niche market segment.
How would it impact light and medium light then ?
Would Niche then have a choice of Burrs set?
LMSC It’s simply an idea at the moment in the mind of Lance and myself…in fact he might well be further ahead in his thinking than me. Who knows how it would impact light and medium light, until someone tests it. Lance is the one talking about Gorilla Burrs and I guess it will be down to people to buy them independently and fit them to the Niche if they want to. The Gorilla Burr idea is an independent one from Lance and not yet tested.
I think you are looking at the finish line and no one is in the starting blocks yet.
DavecUK 100%. In theory one could add an external voltage regulator to slow down the rotation but there’s the risk of a stall. I have to say the idea of a NICHE with flat burrs has its attractions.
Grahamsphillips 100%. In theory one could add an external voltage regulator to slow down the rotation but there’s the risk of a stall. I have to say the idea of a NICHE with flat burrs has its attractions.
Huge risk of stalling and you cannot fit/mount flat burrs inside a Niche zero, doesn’t spin fast enough either.
DavecUK their website does not list them, so not available yet.
DavecUK Nope not yet but imminent
Oh now I see why Lance didn’t like the Niche for his preferred beans, a new burrset is on its way.
I am only joking.
Or am I?
😆
Inspector That’s quite literally the 300-pounds gorilla… and you can decide of what “pound” I’m talking about.
There is always the discussion of clarity…I’ve often wondered if less texture is seen as greater clarity.
I’ve often thought it would be great to all have 250g or 500g of the same coffee and do a mass tasting of pour over, espresso, Americano Done on different grinders and kit, so we know what the coffee is but no tasting notes.
DavecUK That would be nice!
DavecUK There is always the discussion of clarity…I’ve often wondered if less texture is seen as greater clarity.
I would think of texture as how it feels in our mouth / on tongue? So, I would look at texture as a light bodied cup, medium or full bodied. The light body / mouthfeel is on the brighter, high acidity / astringency sides of the scale.
MWJB summarised clarity as “too vague a term and has too many other potential confounding factors.” Notwithstanding this nice summary of what a clarity is, I like to keep it simple and call clarity as an ability to “separate (detect) the different flavours / tasting notes”, which I think is very difficult if one is pulling 1:1.5 or 1:2. Perhaps, as Rob said, may be one needs to pull an espresso at 1:2.5 to 1:3, assuming it is there in a cup to pick up.
So, when a lot of people pull a shot at 1:1.5 or 1:2, and say the cup is muddled or there is no clarity, I always wondered how is it possible to see through the clarity / flavour in such a highly concentrated liquid? Of course, I have never had a chance to pull shots in conical and flat, say for a light roast, to understand why baristas can pick clarity in flat grinders.
The discussions on these during the last few days suggest that body/mouthfeel, texture, flavour or clarity (if separating flavour notes is clarity), aroma, palette and after-taste all need separating.
In summary, I don’t think texture is clarity, which, if all it all possible to delineate in espresso, rests crucially on the mercy of roasters! I also think we are too busy chasing these as rarities and not, perhaps, enjoying some very good coffee as much as we all should! 😊
I’m not a great fan of April reviews but its interesting that broadly they are making the same points as Lance. My perspective is that the NICHE is really oriented to Espresso and while it can do pour over that’s not where it shine.
Grahamsphillips - This was discussed earlier on, in this thread: https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/811-niche-zero-one-year-in-review/94
Seems Kyle has different thoughts. Worth a watch. Both thought the Niche cup was from the Key.
Yeah. I saw that. It would be interesting to do a comparison with flat burrs. Tricked out DF64 vs Niche maybe? Sprometheus upgraded from a Niche to a Lagom p64 and seems happy.
Grahamsphillips It would be interesting to do a comparison with flat burrs. Tricked out DF64 vs Niche maybe?
Why does the DF64 need to be tricked out before comparison with the Niche?
DavecUK Nice and short! Not surprising what a blind test could do. They thought the Key gave them clarity, while it was actually the Niche. It goes to show how opinions can change in an unbiased environment; also, muddled, clarity, etc are probably in the mind of the reviewer based on how they want to look at it!
(Disclaimer: I’m a satisfied Niche user)
I think we should see all the above videos as entertainment, and likely the tip of the iceberg of some commercial interests (from either the video producers or some equipment manufacturers). Basing purchasing decisions on a very small sample of tasting experiences from one or two people doesn’t seem that reliable an indicator for our purchasing decisions. There are many other factors potentially at play here.
There does seem to be a threshold below which workflow, taste and customer satisfaction is relatively poor, but it seems that it gets quite subjective above this (even some of the usual recommendations should be taken with a grain of salt, as they are hints which do not always apply - see for instance the recommendations for temperature and roast levels)
Eiffel The trouble is the Youtuber’s don’t discuss reasonable alternatives. Hoffmann says he was spoiled by the EG-1, fair enough, but it’s several times the price. Likewise Lance & his Bentwood. Comparing the Niche to a behemoth like the Ditting isn’t realistic. Many of these guys have commercial equipment at their place of work as their datums, they’re not really “customers”.
Anyone who has the money & desire for these grinders (Ditting, Weber, Bentwood) isn’t likely to be in the market for a Niche.
MWJB A tricked out DF64 ends up costing the same as a Niche - and if you prefer the flat burr taste?
DF65 is £60 less than a Niche, what are the tricks you can apply for that? It’s not burrs.
I have the Wilfa flat, there is no obvious advantage to the flat burr taste with that, so which flat burr grinders have flat burr taste (as opposed to those with flat burrs that don’t, which suggests that burrs of all types are varied)?
MWJB yeah it won’t get you an SSP burrset but £60 would fix some of the issues people most commonly complain about - you could add a 3d printed antipopcorn device, new declumper, you’d even have enough for better aligned Mazzer burrs with some change for other quality of life stuff like a grind dial indicator if that bothers you. Still not going to have that workflow everyone enjoys with the Niche but still improves the experience for a lot of users.
I think the big price difference between the two is for US users who can’t get the Niche for as cheap, even with the relative strength of the dollar against the pound.
My NZ is in transit, so I have yet to try it out.
But just for the heck of it, I watched Lance Hedricks video. What a self impressed egotistical j***! In the guise of being objective, he insulted any reasonably experienced home barista that bought one of these. He even insulted those that are still learning. He then proceeded to insult those of us that enjoy fuller bodied / strength coffees or coffees with chocolate and caramel notes, even though many of us also enjoy lighter roasts and or fruity notes. He then went after wine lovers who like tannins in their wines. I’m probably leaving out afew other folks that he took shots at. What a buffoon! I generally do not post comments like this on social media, but I think I just might place a couple on his channel.
I don’t particularly like him,
He’s quite knowledgeable, but has a wierd way of showing it.
He championed a female barista called Morgan who has a yt channel I’m sure she won a world barista thing too.
But yeah not a fan
Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -
Definitely knowledgeable, but he could learn abit of humility, that there are a multitude of opinions and ideas in the world, and that you have to be respectful or people will just tune you out. I already have.
It seems to be a common trend is coffee, there’s only Thier way to do stuff, you see this in a lot of manufacturs who won’t listen.
Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -
Cuprajake I don’t particularly like him,
He’s quite knowledgeable, but has a wierd way of showing it.
He championed a female barista called Morgan who has a yt channel I’m sure she won a world barista thing too.
Morgan Ekroth (on the far right). Lance is a decent enough guy when you meet him, but might be trying a little too hard to make an impact. His latte art stuff on YouTube is excellent..but I think the reviews need more depth. I guess he will improve with more experience.
Cuprajake a female barista called Morgan who has a yt channel I’m sure she won a world barista thing too.
She won USA barista championship and came runner up in the world championship help in Melbourne two months ago.
A class act is Morgan. A bit like Hoffman (a previous world barista champion) in some ways in that she is putting herself on the world stage to have her smarts independently validated by qualified judges. Respect.
