Vesuvius with several issues! Help Diagnose Please.

carter840

I purchase my vesuvius used a couple years ago and it’s been serving me well since.

However the other day the machine started hissing and I went over to check it out, machine indicated Boiler Overtemp and the hissing noise was the pressure relief valve that had activated.

You’ll notice that the machine knows what temperature it is, and yet the boiler is still on (more on this below)

So I quickly unplugged the machine, I wasn’t able to triage anything further that evening, but the following day I started the machine up and 30 seconds later there was a smell of burning electric and my 20Amp circuit breaker tripped.

The power inlet (EMI filter) fried, so I replaced that, then I found that the power switch also fried and so I replaced that. However I’m now seeing what caused this issue - both boilers heat all the time. This should not be possible on the US 120V version of this machine. Here’s what’s even crazier - both boilers heat all the time even when the machine is off (via the touch screen), but mains power is still on. This immediately overloaded the electrical components and the smell of burning plastic returns. Here is the machine off with the brew boiler still on:

I’ve unhooked the power to the steam boiler so that it doesn’t fry the electronics and so that I had time to try a factory reset, still no solution. The boiler turn on whenever the mains power is on!

To make matters worse, I fear that the pump is also fried now. As I am getting 24V DC on that connector but the pump does not work.

What is going on?! Any ideas?

carter840

@DavecUK actually joined this forum as I’ve seen you provide sage guidance on this machine so many times before - would be great to get your perspective on this strange behavior.

DavecUK

OK, lets unpack it with a little armchair logic…

Multiple component failure is unlikely unless they are all linked. together in such a way that it can happen. So the pump is not failed…or the transformer that runs it…

The other components on the power side may well be fried due to excessive current draw at 115V, far more than their design load…The out of temperature range alarm not shutting off the element is also impossible unless!…we will come to that.

You say the machine should not be capable of simultaneous operation and this is correct, the 115/110 volt version of the software doesn’t allow it and this option doesn’t exist on your machine does it?

Clearly you feel (and I have no reason to doubt you) that both elements are sucking up power, which at your voltage will fry the wiring upstream e.g. RF Filter and power receptacle as they are good for 16A, so single boiler operation.

Logically this means there is likely only two causes of the single fault affecting your machine.

A failed motherboard that is sending signals to both SSRs to switch on and stay on…this is extremely unlikely as they have proved bulletproof over the years.
A much more likely cause is a failed SSR (failed closed), probably the service boiler SSR, Of course when you turn it on, the brew boiler will always suck power and so will the service boiler drawing over 22 amps and the feed circuitry won’t like that

If it is a failed SSR, replacement of the SSR and probably just the RFI unit and switch is all that is required….the wiring will probably be OK unless it was on for too long. Check out the SSRs, especially the service boiler one, and get back to us.

carter840

DavecUK

Thanks so much.

Is the Service boiler the same as the steam boiler - I assume so

I do think some components got fried specifically the mains switch and EMI plug receptical as both were very burnt - I’ve replaced both though so we should be good to go now and I can get the machine on with these repairs

Am I correct that SSR is the Solid State Eelay? How can I test these? With the machine turned off via touchscreen both boilers are still on (or at least the lights are illuminated indicating such)? I even turned off the steam boiler on the touch screen and it stayed illuminated- so that’s very strange to me.

Thank you again for your help in troubleshooting - I am very greatful.

DavecUK

carter840 Service boiler is steam boiler yes.

testing an SSR which is an opto coupled device really needs to be done with an appropriate load in a test rig and they do need to have an in range load attached to them. You can see them with the cover off and trace which boilers they power.

There is a simpler way for you…its unreasonable to think both SSRs would have failed simultaneously, unless there was a lightning strike or something. So pull the terminals of the service boiler heating elements (isolate them well, so you don’t get magic blue smoke) and let the brew boiler heat up and then switch on and off normally.

If it does (and I think it will)…switch off, unplug machine, remove the service boiler SSR and replace it with the brew boiler SSR, don’t bother putting the old SSR back in the brew boiler bit. Just make sure the wires can’t short, cos of the blue smoke.

Switch on and see if the service boiler can be switched on off….if it can, switch off and unplug, put the brew boiler SSR back so you can use the machine for espresso and buy a replacement SSR for the service boiler side.

I also might feed back to the factory to see if it’s possible for the US machines to put in an inline fuse/breaker, resettable that trips main power if the draw is above 16A ish. As you know US plugs don’t have fuses like UK plugs and I assume your breaker was 20 amps?

Mayhem

carter840 I would test the relays with a multimeter, with the machine unplugged. If there is continuity between the two poles on the output side, the relay(s) have gotten stuck in closed position. Seems very unlikely that both relays would fail at the exact same time though…

carter840

DavecUK

Dave you are increadibly helpful - thank you.

With your guidance I have confirmed the pump does still work. That’s a relief in terms of repair cost.

With the heating element for the service boiler unplugged I am able to get the brew boiler to temp and it does shut off. Which is great!

The inidciators on the front show that the right side light remains illuminated - is this the service boiler? Also you are correct that I couldn’t register continuity on the relay (that surprised me).

I’m short on time today, so I didn’t have a chance to switch SSRs as you recommended, but based on the above I’m inclined to order a new SSR for the service boiler.

To answer your question, yes my circuit is 20Amps - future proofing for whatever machine is next (hoping that’s not for a while with today’s economy)

Your suggestion of an in line fuse is sensible. There’s about 6-7 other fuses in the machine. Somewhat odd that there isn’t one for the mains. I might add a breaker right before the mains switch.

Lastly, since I’ve got this whole machine opened up. Is there a suggested descaling (edited for spelling) procedure?

DavecUK

Mayhem may not work, because the shorted relay don’t usually register continuity with the multimeter.

DavecUK

carter840 The inidciators on the front show that the right side light remains illuminated - is this the service boiler? Also you are correct that I couldn’t register continuity on the relay (that surprised me).

Can’t remember what lights that LED exactly

carter840 I’m short on time today, so I didn’t have a chance to switch SSRs as you recommended, but based on the above I’m inclined to order a new SSR for the service boiler.

I would continue with the plan as I advised, it’s all worked out for you so far, why change a good thing. My plan tells me whether the SSR is bad or the motherboard is bad…your modification is just a time delay and possibly it does the same with the replacement SSR (then money wasted).

carter840 To answer your question, yes my circuit is 20Amps - future proofing for whatever machine is next (hoping that’s not for a while with today’s economy)

It was as I expected, but you confirmed it…This means that breaker would have probably happily allowed 23amps to flow almost indefinitely.

carter840 Your suggestion of an in line fuse is sensible. There’s about 6-7 other fuses in the machine. Somewhat odd that there isn’t one for the mains. I might add a breaker right before the mains switch.

That would be an excellent idea…just remember, depending on type, breakers will sustain various increasing levels of overcurrent for decreasing amounts of time…so select carefully. They don’t reach their rating and immediately trip. Many fast blow fuses do of course!

Descaling is as per manual really….nothing changes, unless the boilers are physically out.

CoyoteOldMan

carter840 The inidciators on the front show that the right side light remains illuminated - is this the service boiler?

FWIW, it is in a Vesuvius Evo Leva, which has the same LEDs (but a different control board and boilers). The Vesuvius E61 manual is silent on the issue, although it mentions them as “brew and steam” in that order.

DavecUK

It was silent because I couldn’t remember which was which and how they were fired <lol>

DavecUK

I have just confirmed what I thought was correct, the LEDs are powered by the heating element being switched on, so if the SSR is sending power, or trying to to the heating element the LED will light up. It’s not powered by the lower 5-32V DC switching signal from the motherboard…so it’s “almost” 100% the SSR has failed closed.

John_Yossarian

DavecUK There was a question which LED is which. As I am using predominantly the brew boiler the steam one is used very rarely for some milk drinks, the left is definitely the brew boiler and the right is the steam/service one. Provided this is an established procedure it should stay the same even with the machines for NAM.

carter840

Thanks all, this has been so helpful.

I looks like the specific SSR (Crydon CSW2425G) in the Vesuvius is out of stock everywhere I ordered the below. Will this work?

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/655-SSR-240D25

Also the manual I have on the Vesuvius doesn’t have an instructions on descaling (it mentions this is out of scope within the manual). Any suggestions on process? I have citric acid.

DavecUK

carter840 I looks like the specific SSR (Crydon CSW2425G) in the Vesuvius is out of stock everywhere I ordered the below. Will this work?

One can but try…it should…just make sure there is good thermal contact…perhaps even a thin smear of non drying heatsink compound would be useful.

50g citric per litre, in tank
drain steam boiler allow to refill
pull water through group in short bursts until it has a lot of descaler in it
allow machine to come up to temp then switch off
wait 1 or 2 hours
flush brew boiler in short bursts till it doesn’t smell of descaler, drain steam boiler and allow to refill 3 times, until you can’t taste descaler.

CoyoteOldMan

carter840 The original (Crydom CSW2425) is in stock at Mouser:

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Crydom/CSW2425?qs=LRwJBMirSZBfmbTQI1TnrA%3D%3D&gclid=Cj0KCQjwn4qWBhCvARIsAFNAMiifDApDzvx3a1a1RHrifOqj9M3RucCTwlNFez2-3b3kM5KrucOLibgaAjPjEALw_wcB

DavecUK

CoyoteOldMan I little more expensive, but Crydom and Omron are the best, so worth it.

Obviously never from ebay, cos they are mostly fake products.

carter840

CoyoteOldMan

thank you. The original is the “G” model with indicator which is out of stock - I should have thought to check for the non “G” model which you posted. Ordered that one now and canceled the other!

Thank you

CoyoteOldMan

carter840 You are very welcome! Let us know how things work out.

(the LED indicator is hidden inside the machine anyway… useful in snagging/fixing, but largely not an issue; it can always be replaced with an external resistor and an LED if needed!)