Londinium

Personally this thread needs locking before it starts, as it won’t end or start well.

Haha

whinmoor85 Fair question, fair answer. Londinium came about towards Xmas 2012. In reality, there was very little to compete against it in the Prosumer division. The machines actual ability was bigged up to mythical proportions by Londinium plus supporters. Their claims though were never provable. We were force fed statements like "The Londinium is the most temperature stable lever machine in the market’ but this was never proven.
At the time, Londinium were also roasters and favoured darker beans. They realised that they were ostracising a large part of the market (lighter roasted beans) as the L1 was certainly in its Niche with darker stuff. This spawned the LR series which was aimed at lighter beans, ending up with the current LR24 model. The claim to fame for this machine is that you can vary the preinfusion pressure using an ap from your phone. Certainly break through but the effect this has on a shot is debatable.
They had market share from 2012 to roundabout now. The machines are built by Fracino in Birmingham. Not really sure who actually designed it. So Fracino have the production line, hold the spares and in effect when someone buys one, a little box appears, Londinium who have really had no part in the process except sales, then stick their mark up on and a very expensive box wings its way to a proud owner.
Over the years, anyone who has dared suggest that the machines they make are not the best in the world, are met with a barrage of criticism and cancelling from Londinium filtering down to their cheerleaders and fan boys.
Then a few things happened at about the same time. The ACS Vesuvius Evo leva came to fruition. It is less expensive, far more developed and tuneable producing a far superior shot (has anyone documented an Evo owner selling up and buying a Londinium?). CFUK was sold twice and a certain clique of people on the whole were mostly banned. This lost them access to what was the biggest coffee forum in the UK that was Londinium ‘friendly’. This meant people were no longer having their products forced down throats continually which must have affected sales and revenues.
So, you end up with a bunch of people who are heavily influenced by one person who unofficially represents Londinium in the UK. He works behind the scenes, mainly by PM trying to buy and sell Londinium products. Funnily enough all of that clique ended up on their own little forum. All the Evo owners ended up on their far larger and busier forum and let us hope it stays that way.
The Profitec 800 is a wonderfully made, beautiful looking machine. The big issue that it has is that it is a dipper. That means the group is bolted directly onto the boiler making precise temperature control an impossibility, a bit like the Londinium range. Yes, they use a thermo syphon to regulate temperature but there is actually no method of telling what that temperature is!
I hope that answers your question matey

whinmoor85 Why does Londinium divide opinion so much? I’m asking this in good faith and I’m not wanting to start a flame war it’s just something I’ve noticed on forums.

There are other lever machines like the Profitce 800 but it doesn’t elicit the same reaction.

I think it’s pretty much down to the business practices of the owner and how owners of said machines think it’s OK to react.

It looks very much like a dropship model of doing business. To give it the fairy dust, it’s been marketed super hard and is really a very standard, average machine with a fairly low build cost, made by Fracino and marked up to an unbelievable price for what you get. So Londinium have to be super protective and the customers because they paid so much for it, sort of have to defend it. A bit of “Emperors new clothes” perhaps

When people ask the wrong questions, about the magic properties of the machine…then of course such discussion has to be put down..

whinmoor85 Why does Londinium divide opinion so much?

Are you just curious or possibly considering buying one?

dfk41 Thanks, a nice, rational exposition. I’ve had a sort of academic curiosity about the brand but always found the cult-like fervour a bit unnerving personally (bit like Tupperware and Amway in the 80’s…) And like them, it seriously seems just a little overpriced…perhaps that’s part of the special sauce?

Good luck to those wanting to buy in, but the “my thing good, your thing BAD” seems kind of tragic.

Londinium is an interesting company. As @DavecUK says, doesn’t manufacture in house - relies on a separate company but that’s not necessarily unique and there are advantages and disadvantages to that model. L1 which debuted in 2011 was designed around a thermosyphon to ensure, quoting Londinium marketing ‘exceptional brew temp stability’ with no need for cooling shots when pulling espressos back to back - a notable drawback for levers reliant on a dipper. Londinium at the time eschewed all things PID arguing they were unnecessary in the L1 given its argued thermosyphon temp stability. But nothing stays new forever and things move on. L1’s successor LR 24 has a very quiet rotary pump instead of the original vibe one. Addition of rotary pump enables variable PI on the fly thanks to a digital module. Price of the original L1 at launch in 2011 was around £1600 but a new LR 24 is around £3700 - quite a jump.

Having owned both L1 and LR and having enjoyed both machines and the coffee produced, I was seduced by the siren upgraditis. I wanted to stick with levers as I like the tactile feel and feedback a lever provides and the low maintenance. Also had the feeling that whilst the Londiniums I owned were very capable machines, might there be more to get out of a lever than they could?

When launched in 2011, darker roasts held sway in all things espresso but that began to change with tastes and preferences beginning to include lighter roasts which pose problems for espresso as lighter roasts are inherently harder to extract than darker roasts and need higher brew temps. Therein lies Londinium’s Achilles heel IMO - inability to adjust brew temp and accurate feedback on temps set. It is argued by Londinium LR 24 can extract at higher temps via the variable PI module but I don’t understand how raising PI pressure impacts on brew temp and, if it does, by what margin and what temps.

Londinium have also continued to use the Fiorenzato group but in a single spring configuration. There was a brief time when Londinium offered the two spring configuration but did not advise Londinium owners to go down that route. Over the years I owned Londiniums, questions began to nag regarding the peak and declining pressure curve nature of the single spring set up. Some users have fitted measuring devices and shown that Londiniums peak at around 8-8.5bar and decline very rapidly. Is this ideal for lighter roasts?

I’ve had an ACS Evo on the bench for over a year. At the outset the thing that most stood out was the way it behaved with lighter roasts. Fruit note were even more forward and brighter than my experiences with my LR and without any attendant acidic unpleasantness. With my Londinium, I would be pulling shots around 35 secs and more to tame acidity with the side effect of introducing bitter over extracted bitter notes. With the Evo, extraction time sweet spot for me is 25 secs - balanced sweet fruit forward shots and no bitterness.

I think Londinium is going to face some stiff opposition in the marketplace with the arrival of machines like the Evo. Question is, what does Londinium have up its sleeve to keep competitors at bay?

I agree with what Dave said about holding back espresso machine development though. Early last year when I started looking at nice levers to upgrade to (or at least salivate over) I could really only find the old classics and Londinium. But the capabilities seemed pretty limited for the price, and that was really shown up by the entry of the completed ACS leva. Now we have Nurri too, and hopefully more and more options.

DavecUK 1 group Vostok is out now as well

What’s the difference between that and the Evo Leva Dave?

MediumRoastSteam What’s the difference between that and the Evo Leva Dave?

It’s got the same internals, different case…fair bit larger…600 almost deep and a bit taller.

I noticed this rave review of the Londinium 24 on YouTube the other day. I thought I would post it as a counter-weight to a number of critical comments about Londinium that have appeared in this forum. Disclosure: I have been happily using an L1 since I bought it new in December 2014.

mathof2 its not really a review as such, hes only just got it and been very quiet since, its not even on his instagram which is wierd. but you couldnt have two more different machines on a bench hahaha

personally i dont think a lever should be used for turbo shots lol

however the lever wars will continue till the day we dies -

Cuprajake the lever wars will continue till the day we dies -

Until this happens!

🤣

2:20 in - think that sums up levers haha