Good day all. Thanks for the advice from a kind member here to start a thread. I have owned my setup since Jul 7th after some time of research. Failing to get an acceptable result, I was so frustrated and pull 4 shots straight with even more terrible result. I then went to look at the return policy on the equipment but hope to get some advice before I give up. In term of setup, I have a Cafelat Robot manual lever and my grinder is the 1zpresso JX-Pro. Beans is from pact, the dark roast espresso 7 days after brew date. I acquired my understanding on espresso making via YouTube, including Hoffmann’s espresso series. Since I owned the setup, I have been trying to dial in the coffee from grind setting 2.40 down to 1.45. I tried each with an interval of 0.025. According to Hoffman, I should try to find the finest grind size where I still can achieve minimal channeling. Today, I tried go down to 1.45 and I choked the robot. I checked on a bathroom scale and it was 110lb force, where people suggested 25lb translated to 9bar. Even with 110lb pressure, I barely pull out 10g and I started to worried breaking the Robot. I did suspect I basically dislike espresso. But I went to cafe and tried the automatic machine in the office. Even the espresso from the automatic machine impressed me … Here are my workflow: 1/ weight 18g bean … 2/ grind and transfer to PF … 3/ obsessively prepare the puck with wdt and tampering with moderate pressure … 4/ add boiling water to basket 5mm to full … 5/ light pressure pull and preinfusion for 15s after seeing coffee wet all holes … 6/ pull for 25 - 30s with uniform pressure until getting 36g espresso … 7/ stir and drink … 8/ (always) another failure. I was getting barely acceptable shot at 2.10 grind size but far from what is good. The espresso I got from automatic machine was way better. And when I go finer, the bitterness was striking. The reason why I told myself not settle on 2.1 was because people told me they use 1.30 to 1.60 for JX-Pro. I am totally confused. any advice will be appreciated.

Here is the 1.65 grind size pull. I lift weight and I was trying to pull pretty hard in order to finish the shot at 25s. https://youtu.be/nJUcR9PlyxQ [URL=https://i.imgur.com/0R1Sf5F.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/0R1Sf5F.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

@"Knluk"#591 I have no idea how this lever works. There is a user guide on the Cafelat site. You may want to read [this](https://www.cafelat.co.uk/blogs/cafelat-robot-manual/robot-tips) First, your puck prep is good as I see the beading is good and mostly uniform throughout the screen. Second, it takes a good 25s for you to start getting a pour, unless I’m missing something. Third, the shot is too long. You want to aim for 35s-40s. If this is a dark roast, then 25s-30s. These include PI time as well. Fourth, if the grind setting is 1.65 turns on your grinder for that video shot, loosen the grind further. Fifth, If the shot is tasting bitter, loosening the grind will help. However, are you pre-heating the water chamber and filter? If not, the hot water when you fill the cold chamber would no longer be hot enough. Am sure, somebody with more knowledge of this machine will chip in.

Why are you sure that you need a 1:2 brew ratio? Is this what the coffee you like is brewed at? Ratio is an assumption of strength/concentration, not a mark of quality/guarantee of good flavour….in fact, trying to pull all coffees that short is going to cause you problems. Coarsen up your grind setting. start pulling shots a bit longer, maybe 1:3 or 1:3.5. Don't be so focused on time, concentrate on the grind setting and the weight in the cup. If you have 15s of preinfusion you can still get tasty cups with another 10-15s on top of that (count the whole shot time, don't break it down, just do the preinfusion consistently). Score each cup, doesn't need to be complicated but give it a number, then average up the number over the last few shots, so when you make changes you can see if the average goes up, or down. The picture of the shot doesn't help, you can't see tasty, there 'is no way to troubleshoot that. So stick with 18g, record grind setting, weight of shot in the cup, total shot time (but don't kill a shot by time) & score. Don't get into a frenzy and make a bunch of shots in one go, just a couple if the first is not good enough to drink. Report back after each one, otherwise it's too easy to lose your way with back & forth adjustments and not make sense of what is going on. If 2.1 tasted best, maybe go a bit coarser, don't worry what other people do, do what you need to do to get a good cup.

To add manual levers are very hard to use too.

July 7th, as in, today? You can't give up on day one! 😅 So I got a robot only last week, and I absolutely love it. Rather than being difficult I've actually found it to be very forgiving. I also have a JX Pro. I'd say the beans I'm currently using are medium roast, and I'm at 1.4.3 (3rd dot) on the JX. I'm using 18g and pulling to a 1:2.5 - 1:3 ratio. I have the barista version and do the pre-infusion at 2 bar, followed by the rest of the shot at 6, perhaps tapering off slightly towards the end. These shots are landing somewhere in the 40 to 50 second range, which may seem long, but I'm getting very balanced results with this! 🤷♂️ I wouldn't go mad with the pressure, Paul from Cafelat suggests 6-7 bar, it sounds like you are far too fine for these beans. For me 6 bar feels comfortable, trying to get 8 or 9 bar is hard work, and difficult to maintain smoothly. You don't have to preheat the Robot, certainly not for dark roast and if you use water straight from the boil. If your beans are proper dark then you might even consider using water 10 - 20 seconds off the boil? Could you get a hold of some of the beans used in the automatic in work? I think this would be very helpful to compare. Don't give up, the Robot is a fantastic piece of kit, and very capable of making tasty espresso!

@"MWJB"#p21435 thanks. Lots of sound advices and I will give them a go. for the 1:2 ratio, I read so many people recommended it for beginner with 18g coffee. I just want to keep a few variable constant and focus on getting the grinder setting right. I have never tried other ratio, except that I tried 1:1.9 for experiment. It was even worse shot. Will try more ratio and report back.

@"Cuprajake"#p21436 before I made the purchase, I did read review and people said it is very forgiving and can produce coffee at par with expensive machine. I hope my learning curve is just a little steeper.

Don’t want to give up home coffee making (need some advice/ encouragement)

HVL87

I don’t have any knowledge of manual lever machines but as others have said it’s probably a good idea to grind coarser, especially as you’re using a dark roast. Hoffman prefers lighter roasts and his guidance of grinding as fine as you can before you see excessive channeling is not something I would necessarily apply to a dark roast, which is more soluble and extracts much easier.

It’s also possible that you prefer a medium or medium/dark roast. Something to explore in the future

Don’t give up! It takes a while to get the hang of it; I’m still trying to figure many things out.

Knluk

HVL87 I chose dark roast was because I was told it is easier to dial in for beginner. And no preheating need when using robot. But good idea to try other beans. Thanks.

Knluk

Bicky Thx for the encouragement. I am super motivated that you made good shot at early stage. Maybe I just took the wrong approach to start.

your 1.4.3 sort of reaffirm me that my JX-Pro is really different from many others. I tried close the burrs and the setting read -0.1.0 (passed the zero by one number). The fact that you can pull comfortably at 1.4.3 really shocked me. I am sure even if I hand stand on it, the arm won’t move.

I also think I should try to have a longer shot. The reason why I didn’t do so was I had some bitter shot and I learnt that the third part of the espresso is bitter. So if I pull a longer shot, it will become more bitter. I therefore tried 1:1.9 and it tasted like shit. Really getting no way to go.

I tried to think of the problem in a more logical way. I understand I may not getting the temperature/ pressure/ or some minor thing perfect, but I have pulled 20 shots already. It won’t be that back unless I did something wrong fundermentally? From what I read from the comments here, it may probably the grind size and ratio. I admitted that I may not get even close to right for these two aspects.

tompoland

Water temperature is very impactful on flavor. If your shots are sour you may need to increase the water temperature. A cold group head will drop the temperature very quickly and can result in a sour tasting espresso. I have not used a robot but I have used other non-electric Levers. In short, you have to be really fussy about the temperature of the container holdi g the hot water before you put water in from the kettle. I use a weber BBQ thermometer to check the water temperature before I pill the shot. No amount of puck prep will compensate for the wrong temperature.

Knluk

tompoland based on the manual of robot and a lot of experience by users, the temp and temp stability is good if the PF is filled with boiling water 5mm to full. No preinfusion needed unless for light roast. Also, it tastes bitter in my latest shot. Maybe I should reduce the water temp a bit by waiting half minute before pouring?

tompoland

Knluk in regard to the video, the pour is good enough to suggest that the puck prep was for this shot. And the grinder is good quality.

MediumRoastSteam

@Knluk - what’s wrong with the espresso you make? Is it sour, bitter, thin, syrupy? What do you not like? And, what do you expect it to be? Do you like the beans you ordered from Pact? Have you tried other beans? Have you tried the beans you ordered on a different machine?

Sometimes it’s not about the equipment, but about what you put in it and how you use it.

Knluk

MediumRoastSteam it is too bitter to me. I think the thickness is okay to good. I tried the robot with two different beans from pact. The first one was medium dark and I am on the dark one now. Both are no good to me. I also have black cat chocolate blend (today is 3 days after brew) and North Star dock blend and Brazil blend on the way. These will need some waiting time before I can use. So I will have no beans to use after two more shots.

I am noob in espresso. So I am not sure I can describe my preference in the taste well. But I think I want a balanced taste of sourness and bitterness and sweet. I like thicker body. But I think my tongue is very forgiving. For most espresso I tried in cafe including the office automatic machine impressed me. I will be happy if I can pull something even only similar to the automatic machine.

Knluk

My attempt this morning. Another failure I am afraid:

Recipe: 15s preinfusion, 27s pull time at 7 bar (by feel), 18g in 45g out (1:2.5), grind size 2.0.2, beans is dark, brew 7 days ago.

Observation: observed slight channeling at the beginning of the pull, but maybe I greatly reduce pressure this time. I also didn’t count the time. Instead I focus on a steady pressure with moderate pull.

Result: strong bitterness, not sour, nice thick body

treatment: add some sugar so I can swallow it :)

Gagaryn

If I was you I’d try different beans. I think you just have beans you don’t like espresso from. And don’t be put off by the perfection that is presented in YT videos. That last shot looked fine to me - I often get a bit of slight unevenness like that as I don’t have the temperament to sweat over details like perfect puck prep. I make espresso like a Neanderthal - tastes fine

Knluk

Gagaryn thanks for the advice. It is important for me to have some assurance bit by bit to identify what I really missed out. Re beans, I hope it is the cause as it will then by just a learning experience to identify something I like. Do you have any recommendation?

Sometime I am really confused. I can even like the one from automatic machine which likely use shitty bean or even grounded coffee. How can I hate the shot I made with fresh and freshly grounded beans. Still suspect I missing something here.

I am looking at some grinder in case my jX-pro is really the cause but if possible, I may not want to spend that money as I like the workflow of manual. If I have a Niche Zero for example, I can set the similar grind size with other users so will be safe. Is there anything I should be concern about buying used Niche? Does the burr tend to age quick and need to replace from time to time?

MediumRoastSteam

Knluk - Go to the supermarket and buy yourself a tin of the world famous Illy coffee - that might be something you would be more used to, specially if the automatic machine is giving you good coffee. You didn’t say what coffee that machine has though, but I’m assuming if it’s something in an office with an office plan, it’s likely to be something very box standard.

And then try something medium/medium dark roasts from roasters - keep it to a well tried blend.

Are you sure you are detecting bitterness rather than sourness? With the Robot, the temperature is always decreasing - there’s no way to increase it. Usually, bitterness is a sign of the water being too hot - which I very much doubt with the machine you have.

Needless to say, this is a journey. If you are a a novice to this, you there will be a period where things will be frustrating for you, specially with the kit you have, due to its limitations.

Also, don’t get carried away by the nth level of detail. Grind your coffee, tamp, pull a shot. Keep things consistent. Change one variable at a time. Keep to the simplest possible routine you can have. When you introduce a change, think about what it represented in the cup. Go again.

LMSC

Knluk my jX-pro is really the cause

Your grinder is fine. It is a lovely grinder, which is what I have and use daily for espresso and pour overs.

You said, you have two shots:

1: Your latest video is good. I can see why you are saying it is channelling. Keep everything constant, coarse grind by another 4 micro clicks, pull a shot and see what happens. A click or two in JX pro may not make a difference to the shot. I doubt I can tell the difference in taste.

Since it is a dark roast, pull a shot with 1:1.5 and see if you like.

As advised by folks here, get Illy and get another a medium roast bag and see how it goes. If you have a roaster nearby, go to them, see if you can find a medium roast bag roasted 2 -3 weeks ago and use it.

Worst case, if you are out of coffee, go to Waitrose and get an expensive small coffee bag (not powder) you can find and get that if and only if there is a roast date (not best before). The waitrose bags will normally have a roast date. Do not the buy if the roast date is more than a month. If I am out of coffee beans, I won’t drink coffee. Period! 😊

BTW, what are the flavour mentioned on the bag? Since, it is a dark roast, you may find Cocoa, (dark) chocolate and nuts.

Knluk

MediumRoastSteam thanks for input! Below is a pic of the automatic machine. I like the shot but I do prefer the other shot I had in a specialised cafe. For Illy, are you referring to beans or ground? Do they normally have a brew date? I bought a bag from sainsbury branded Union with brew day slightly over a month old. I don’t want to touch that after two shots :(

I think I am tasting the bitterness as I feel it more at the back of my tongue

Re changing one variable, should I change grind or ratio based on my current problem?

Knluk

LMSC great input for the grind setting on JX pro. I gonna try that. But one question. My pull time is currently 27s. If I were to increase ratio to 1:1.5 and coarsen the grind but maintaining same pressure, I will likely finish the shot at 15s. Won’t it be falling outside the sweet spot of 25s to 30s? I hope you can see how I am stuck with all these variables. Not to mention that I feel very confused reading about an article on how the taste change with pressure/ ratio/ temp/ extract time/ grind size 🤷‍♂️ I will try your suggestion anyway

Below is the bean I am using for ref on the taste note.

MediumRoastSteam

Knluk For Illy, are you referring to beans or ground?

Ground coffee and espresso don’t get on well, at all. For espresso (and if you want good coffee) always grind on demand.

CoyoteOldMan

Knluk For Illy, are you referring to beans or ground? Do they normally have a brew date?

Illy tins have two dates: a ‘Best Before End’ date, with month and year, and a ‘packaged’ (ICS) date with a day, month and year (and time of day).

The ‘BBE’ date is useless, but the ‘packaged’ date gives you a good idea of when the beans were roasted; if (unlikely) it’s recent, then a few weeks of useful life can be inferred (say 6-8 weeks from packaging date*); if it’s months old, the coffee will be fine when just opened, but will deteriorate in the space of a few days.

* You’ll read all sorts of dates for shelf life of roasted coffee, ranging from 2-3 weeks to 6-9 months from roasting. This is one of those areas where you need to make your own personal opinion up on what “still tastes good” to you, and that may very well vary by beans and brewing method. The 6-8 weeks is when I find that Illy beans (which I use often) start tasting mostly of burnt wood, rather than nice coffee; I’m well known for not having a particularly discriminating nose or palate…

LMSC

Knluk Your total shot time includes the PI. As MWJB said, don’t worry too much about the timing. There isn’t anything like a universal sweet spot timing. Let it take as long as it should, provided you like the shot. Similarly, your taste should dictate the ratio. I know one Evo Leva owner, who always drinks a dark roast, pulls 1:2 and takes 45s-50s for the shot to complete. This gentleman’s timer starts only when a drop falls into the cup. 😊

LMSC

Knluk You are over whelmed with information overload. Please take it easy. Why don’t you step away from the machine and try again when you are fresh? 😊

MediumRoastSteam CoyoteOldMan

If a bag is just a little over a month old, it should be still good and should not be like “don’t want to touch it….”. I am also thinking a milk chocolate as a flavour not necessarily not generate a little bit of chocolate bitter taste. The best example I can give is the Docks blend (milk chocolate, toasted nuts,…). The roaster’s description is bitter sweet chocolate. if one were to drink as a black than with milk. That’s what I get as tasting notes in my coffee.

MWJB

Knluk I hope you can see how I am stuck with all these variables.

There are 2 variables, grind setting and brew ratio. Do everything else the same & remember making coffee takes time, but the time it takes is not critical to the result, so record the time as a vague frame of reference, but don’t give it unnecessary importance.

Remember those scores, bitter & sour are only so useful…especially considering coffee is often both at the same time.

I don’t see anythig wrong with buying a small tin of Illy preground for espresso to try as a sanity check. It won’t last long, but maybe enough to provide a clue.

Also see if you can find out how much coffee the Franke machine doses, see what the brew ratio is.

Knluk

CoyoteOldMan been to Waitrose and also checked our M&S food just now. As you expected, the package date was Mar 2022(!). Will try to buy some beans from a local speciality cafe tomorrow although they don’t have brew date shown. But the owner said for the beans on shelve, average age was 12 days after brew.

Knluk

LMSC very true. I think about it all the time and try to sort out what went wrong. Will try to take a break. But I still can pull two shots from the remaining beans. Tempting :)