My set up is a Baratza Virtuoso+ and a 9Barista. My first experience with making espresso at home starts from when I picked up the 9Barista at the beginning of the year. I've made espresso every day since getting it, so by my count, I've made over 200 espressos with it. So although I'm relatively new to espresso-making, I think I have a pretty good grasp on how to tweak the espresso with the tools I have. In case you don't know, the Virtuoso+ is a stepped grinder with 40 steps from very fine to coarse. What I've found is that the Virtuoso+ settings have a big impact on the results. If I have the grinder dialed in for espresso, and I move the setting by just one click, the taste of the espresso changes by a lot, and the extraction time changes by quite a lot — about 8-10 seconds in my experience. I can dial in a really good cup of espresso by first getting close with the grind setting, and then fine-tuning it by adjusting the dose. So I think of the grinder setting as a coarse adjustment, and the dose of coffee as a fine adjustment. And I can get really good results by this method. I understand that I can get more control over the grind with a grinder with more steps (e.g. the Sette 270, with 270 steps), or a stepless grinder (e.g. Niche Zero). My question is, if I can get really good results by adjusting the dose, what can I gain by upgrading my grinder to one that gives more finer control over the grind? I realize that I might be hampered by not knowing what I don't know. I think about the espresso flavor profile on a spectrum from bright/acidic/clear to strong/rich/intense, with too sour and too bitter on the extremes. It could be that a finer adjustment on the grind affects factors I'm not thinking about. If that's the case, I'm all ears.

Welcome to the forum. You should get a more consistent improved cup, together with improved workflow depending on the grinder. Of course this might lead to the spiral down the rabbit hole as after you get the grinder, you might wonder the same thing about the espresso maker? So be warned ☺️

@"DavecUK"#p26228 Thanks for the info! Just to clarify, when you say "more consistent improved cup", I think I understand that a grinder upgrade can make the espressos more consistent from cup to cup. But how would they be improved? I don't doubt that improvement is possible. I just want to know what I can expect. P.S. It was your videos on the Niche Zero that led me to this forum, so thanks for making those.

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p26346 The Segment!

What do I get when I upgrade my grinder?

DavecUK

wilburpan I don’t doubt that improvement is possible. I just want to know what I can expect.

I’d sound like a high fi buff if If I used all the normal coffee terms, so personally I will just say you will probably like the coffee, or some coffees more.

wilburpan

DavecUK Ha! I consider myself a recovered (rehabilitated?) hi-fi buff, so I really appreciate what you’re saying. 😉

tompoland

In answer to your question and adding to the above, you get to choose a grinder that is built to deliver your preferred coffee style.

For example if you want more clarity or “origin” flavors in your espresso then a larger flat burr grinder will likely deliver that whereas if you favor more body/viscosity and you are OK with a little less clarity, then a conical like the Niche will probably do very nicely. And if you want a bit of both, then perhaps consider a hybrid (conical and flat) like the Hedone Honne.

And burr geometry, as opposed to flat versus conical, also has a big impact. For example a grinder with Mazzer Robur conical burrs (e.g. Weber Key) will yield more clarity than a grinder with Mazzer Kony conical burrs (e.g. Niche Zero). Both Mazzer conicals, but different geometry. I like the espresso from both, but they are noticeably different.

MediumRoastSteam

tompoland And burr geometry, as opposed to flat versus conical, also has a big impact. For example a grinder with Mazzer Robur conical burrs (e.g. Weber Key) will yield more clarity than a grinder with Mazzer Kony conical burrs (e.g. Niche Zero). Both Mazzer conicals, but different geometry. I like the espresso from both, but they are noticeably different.

This is interesting. It’s time for the Niche to have a sibling I feel…. A 71mm conical burr version!

wilburpan

tompoland Thanks for the info. Can I try to unpack this a bit?

I might have this wrong, but it sounds you’re describing how the grinder and the type and size of burr affects the espresso along the bright/acidic/clear to strong/rich/intense spectrum that I’m thinking of, and I can see how a grinder can do that. My experience is that I can also make those adjustments with my current grinder, and I can do the same thing by changing the dose of coffee I’m using for my espresso.

My question is, if the grinder is affecting the taste of espresso along that spectrum, and adjusting the dose of the coffee also affects the taste of espresso in the same manner, why not just stick with adjusting the dose instead of getting a new grinder?

To be clear, I’m not questioning the idea that the grinder affects the taste of espresso. I’m just trying to understand how it is doing that separate from the dose of the coffee.

LMSC

Please check this thread as well

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/1048-electric-grinder/58

wilburpan

LMSC Thanks! That DF83 looks very interesting.

tompoland

MediumRoastSteam or a big big brother 83mm Kony?

On a similar note I was surprised at the lack of difference in flavour and viscosity ( @DavecUK was not) between a 71mm Mazzer Roburs in a Helor 106 and the 83mm Mazzer Roburs I put into the Mawani Livi. I really couldn’t take any difference whatsoever. So it might be similar between a 63mm Kony (as in the niche) versus 83mm Konys were such a thing to exist.

I’d love to see Niche take on Weber’s Key grinder with their own 83mm Robur version or take on the EG-1 with a Niche 80mm flat. The stuff of dreams. Mine at least.

CoyoteOldMan

MediumRoastSteam The Segment!

tompoland

wilburpan it’s a fair question based on your experience to date.

And I can’t tell you how different burrs affect the taste but rather that they definitely do.

There’s only so far you can go by adjusting grind size, pressure, flow rate and temperature. Unfortunately it’s not like you can cover the whole spectrum of flavour and viscosity with one grinder and simply adjust those variables in order to enjoy whatever style of espresso you prefer.

Have a look at this thread in case it’s shed some light on those differences https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/1005-hedone-honne-hybrid-grinder-first-looks-august-2022

And welcome to the forum! It’s just delightful to have new members like you contributing to the community and stimulating discussion.

MWJB

wilburpan I might have this wrong, but it sounds you’re describing how the grinder and the type and size of burr affects the espresso along the bright/acidic/clear to strong/rich/intense spectrum that I’m thinking of, and I can see how a grinder can do that. My experience is that I can also make those adjustments with my current grinder, and I can do the same thing by changing the dose of coffee I’m using for my espresso.

I think your grouping of characteristics is not quite right, in the context of what different grinders offer.

With one grinder you can only change the grind setting, meaning you can’t really affect the profile in any other way than:

under-extraction (acidic, very bright, tart, sharp),
balanced (might be have pleasant acidity, might be rich…but these will depend on bean/roast, not a grind malfunction)
& possibly, but often unlikely, over-extraction (drying, smoky, rarely drinkable).

The fact that your grinder is not what most would consider ‘up to the job’ means you are needing to tweak parameters like dose to keep things within a usable range, rather than using the grinder to achieve consistency with just grind setting.

I’m not saying what you are doing wrong/bad, far from it, but you are conflating dialling in/extraction, with grinder profile. They overlap, but are not the same.

Should you change? Tricky without knowing where you want to go and what specifically will suit that. If you don’t know where you want to go, maybe stay as you are for a while and think about identifying any persistent shortcomings you might experience that give similar, generic off tastes with a range of coffees.

My point of view is that with a more capable grinder (whatever the profile), you may find it easier to adjust fewer parameters, rather than having to make more exploratory shots as you work out/second guess what you need to do to the dose, to bring things back into line.

Do you have a problem? If so, is it big enough for you to want to jump? …If you jump, can you see where you want to land & why?

The Virtuoso is not a very expensive grinder, can you afford to buy another grinder without selling the Virtuoso? Then at least you can A/B for while & weigh up the pros & cons.

Don’t buy a Sette, they are horrifically loud & not reliable, Baratza make some good grinders, this isn’t one of them.

tompoland

MWJB “Don’t buy a Sette, they are horrifically loud & not reliable, Baratza make some good grinders, this isn’t one of them”

Amen to that. The Sette reputation for breaking down is well documented in many forums.

wilburpan

MWJB

MWJB I think your grouping of characteristics is not quite right, in the context of what different grinders offer.

With one grinder you can only change the grind setting, meaning you can’t really affect the profile in any other way than:

under-extraction (acidic, very bright, tart, sharp),
balanced (might be have pleasant acidity, might be rich…but these will depend on bean/roast, not a grind malfunction)
& possibly, but often unlikely, over-extraction (drying, smoky, rarely drinkable).

Sorry to be so obtuse, but I’m missing something here. If I understand this, different grinders can affect the profile in a way that’s different from the under- to over-extraction range described here? Can you give an example of how different grinders affect the profile in different ways in your experience?

MWJB Should you change? Tricky without knowing where you want to go and what specifically will suit that. If you don’t know where you want to go, maybe stay as you are for a while and think about identifying any persistent shortcomings you might experience that give similar, generic off tastes with a range of coffees.

This is exactly the thing I’m trying to sort out. I am happy with how the espresso I’m making is turning out, and in how I get there by adjusting my grinder and the dose. What I am trying to learn is how using a different grinder might improve things. Again, this is likely a case of that I don’t know what I don’t know.

LMSC

wilburpan how using a different grinder might improve things

As @MWJB advised, I think it might help if you can answer yourself what’s lacking with the cup from the current set up. You can also think what you are after - clarity or body/mouthfeel/texture, etc . The other areas worth thinking are what your likes are — light/medium light or the other side of the spectrum (medium dark/dark), fruity or nutty/chocolates, …

Mark always encourages us to score the coffee. You can score on a scale of 1 to 5 or use his score reference (1 = Dislike extremely; 2 = Dislike a lot; 3 = Dislike moderately; 4 = Dislike a little; 5 = Neither like nor dislike; 6 = Like a little; 7 = Like moderately; 8 = Like a lot; 9 = Like extremely) and see what’s good or otherwise with your cup. Hopefully, you may be able to break down and narrow the areas that can be improved.

MediumRoastSteam

wilburpan - although the grinder will make a difference, don’t expect it to be a “holy taste change Batman!” moment. You’ll get minor differences rather than a bold massive change - at least that was my experience when I swapped from a 64mm flat to a 68mm conical. In a similar comparison to some people’s expectations from a lever or E61 machine thinking that lever or the E61 will be the silver bullet which will fix all coffee related issues.

In my experience, it’s a combination of everything that makes your coffee what it is: water, grinder, coffee machine, the coffee itself and ultimately your technique. the grinder is one of the components which can influence the final result of the beverage.

MWJB

wilburpan Sorry to be so obtuse, but I’m missing something here. If I understand this, different grinders can affect the profile in a way that’s different from the under- to over-extraction range described here? Can you give an example of how different grinders affect the profile in different ways in your experience?

Any functioning grinder from a ceramic burr hand grinder (Porlex/Hario slim etc.) upwards can achieve under to nominal extractions (and tasty cups, even if they are more effort). However, some may do this with cleaner cups as a result. Some may have a muddier/chewier texture with less distinct notes (whether this is better, or worse for you is another question). These comparisons are assumed whilst the brews are in a good taste range, rather than the generic malfunctions of extraction.

You will still recognise different coffees for what they are, in comparisons with other coffee, just the balance will change and the ease of distinguishing specific notes. The coffee is & should be the biggest variable.

If you stick to one grinder, you may not consider that you have a problem, because maybe you don’t. I chop and change grinders, but I generally stick to the ones that feel nicest/least faff to use.

The more coffee you make, eventually there may be something repetitive in the cup that’s negative, even when you have done everything right. When this happens try and articulate what it is and how you want it to change. A/B test any contenders against your current grinder.

The method for improving your coffee with any particular grinder is the same, you open & close the burr gap. So, if you’re happy now, carry on until you’re not.

Like I said before, practically speaking, the more parameters you have to adjust to stay on track, the more the potential wastage, so more precise adjustment could be useful here (but that is your call).

Cuprajake

Well,

Having a grinder that grinds fine enough to more than choke your machine gives the option to use lighter/medium roasts

Once you are at the grinders limits and you are using dose to alter flow that’s a very limiting factor, as it potentially effects your ratio, and taste.

Grind is the most common used part to effect the shot.

Re the sette, they are know to break quite frequently.

If you like conical then a niche is right up your street.

CoyoteOldMan

MediumRoastSteam Can I like this twice?

tompoland

MediumRoastSteam although the grinder will make a difference, don’t expect it to be a “holy taste change Batman!” moment.

Agree with this when comparing two high end grinders with similar size burr sets and geometry (or two low end grinders for that matter).

Personally, I think I have taste buds that are about as discerning as my Labrador’s appetite. But even I notice a significant difference between say an Italmill burr set and Mazzer and between a Mazzer and DRM Hybrid.

It’s definitely not like the difference between say beer and wine, but more like a Lager versus a Pale Ale. It’s significant.

MediumRoastSteam

CoyoteOldMan - There you go… You can like this one too 🤪

wilburpan

MWJB You will still recognise different coffees for what they are, in comparisons with other coffee, just the balance will change and the ease of distinguishing specific notes. The coffee is & should be the biggest variable.

In my experience so far, this is the case — the coffee is the biggest variable. I’ll take that as a sign that I kind of know what I’m doing. 😉

MWJB Like I said before, practically speaking, the more parameters you have to adjust to stay on track, the more the potential wastage, so more precise adjustment could be useful here (but that is your call).

One thing for sure with the 9Barista that I use is that the only variables I have are the grind and the dose. I have some control over the extraction time, but only by changing the grind and/or dose. Maybe this is a good thing after all.