I think what is relevant abou the burr size is that it functions as a way to categorise this grinder. The 78s is much more a competitor to the df83 or the niche duo than it is to the df64 or the p64 or to the p100 for reason of its approximately similar burr size for the lack of any other variable to categorise it according to.
New kickstarter campaign for TIMEMORE Sculptor
Yeah but two of the three are over £1500😆 so shouldn’t really be in the conversation.
Sub £1k you should compare.
Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -
jaron77 now wondering if getting ssp burrs for my DF64 would be better than getting the 078s?
Not sure where you got to with this but FWIW I popped some SSP Espresso (HU) and Gorilla Gear burrs in a couple of DF64s.
Seasoned and aligned.
Only four grinds and pours from each so far. 3 from medium roast and just the 1 from light roasted beans this afternoon.
So far the results are quite stellar. Especially from tne Gorilla Gear.
A long way to go including blind taste comparisons starting in May but just flagging that your thinking makes sense to me.
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chlorox I think what is relevant abou the burr size is that it functions as a way to categorise this grinder.
If you are talking about the incorrect statements from an influencer…no, it doesn’t.
The Chinese have never before been known to manufacture good burrs. At the moment Steel from China is such low quality that Mazzer won’t make burrs with it, and ACS can’t use it to make machines, there is a shortage of really good quality steel.
There are also many other things to consider regarding grind quality and burr performance. I made a post on HB explaining this, I might post it on here as well.
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No, I am not referring to lance hedrick’s comments. I was suggesting rather that the most relevant reason for citing the burr size is as a product categorisation tool.
As for whether the burrs will perform as well, the taste test will be the measure of the grinder once it finally comes out into the wild and is used by the many people who have backed it on kickstarter. While i do not know about the quality of steel being used but is it a good pracrice to dismiss all burrs made from a certain country before they are even tried? For instance, Denis has good reports about the qualitt of the filter coffee made from the turbo burrs and those are also likely to be made in China as well?
By the way to illustrate my earlier post in the niche duo thread on infliencers videos etc, you have in effect indirectly burnished the perceived quality of the niche duo which uses Mazzer burrs by suggesting the 78s burrs will not be quality burrs…i mean no offence but this is what I mean when I say that everyone is unconsciously biased, not just influencers and bloggers. The fact that u r Involved in the niche design and testing process already means u have an iron in this fire even thoigh you dont get a cent out of it…and thta is true of everyone who received a duo for testing…that doesn’t bother me as I consider all this info as useful bit its really a continuum, not another universe…
Anyway whether or not those burrs turn out to be substandard, then I am sure SSP will be quick to capitalise on that emerging market by offering their burrs in 78mm sooner or later.
Sure, price is another possible basis for differentiating on the product category. It isn’t mutually exclusive though as both variables can be used as the differentiating criterion - eg within the approx 80mm market, you have the higher priced ones like the eg-1 & the ditting lab sweet and you have the medium priced ones and the lower priced ones.
price and location will play a massive part, there was talk of the duo hitting $1400 in some places, and like wise we see an increase for stuff we import say a weber key,
end of the day if you like what you bought thats all that matters,dont need grumpy old men on the internet to tell you so
Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -
I agree on how high the price can rise to - for example I wanted a monolith but in the end I had to give up on that plan when it slowly dawned on me that the total cost would have almost equalled what I spent on my machine! :) It’s only that it would be good if we can know what others have said about the machine to have some idea of what it will be like before we spend the bucks and install it on our counter…
chlorox But the coffee machine just works like an oven, in the sense that it makes a drink as a result of your grinds and shot preparation, therefore I would argue that the grinder is more important than the machine. That said, I do not have any belief, that these high end grinders that folks regularly shell out top dollar on actually produce anything more drinkable than the next. But, since it only matters to the owner who cares?
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chlorox The fact that u r Involved in the niche design and testing process already means u have an iron in this fire even thoigh you dont get a cent out of it…and thta is true of everyone who received a duo for testing…
I think you are talking about the perceived unconscious bias! One can never remove it - given free for testing, designed and developed and paid the unit before testing. However, when you back it with evidence it’s all good IMO. Trust does matter.
Yes I am indeed. But that’s the insidious thing about unconsciois bias - it can twist your judgement in ways not easily controllable by one’s own will or awareness. Another example of the hidden power of this bias is how lance hedrick is referred to on this forum before he fell out with the entire forum and afterwards. Now he is almost like Voldemort - the one who must not be named…
I was asked to test it, not promote it. Niche wanted some users in a home environment to use the Duo for a period of time. I do not go on and on about how good it is. Until it hits those who have put their faith in the product and bought one, then I just sit and watch
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chlorox You can never remove the hidden / unconscious bias from the eyes of the public. If some one pays for a grinder or machine, are we seriously expect that person to say it is no good and not fit for purpose! It ain’t going to happen, IMO. 🤷♂️ May be, we see an outlier.
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The bottom line, we know we all benefit from recommendations on forums like this.
I agree the grinder is very important just as the machine is very important. I do not know which is more important. I wish I could afford a grinder that costs as much or more thna my machine but unfortunately my budget doesn’t go that far. Hence my interest to get a grinder that goes almost all the way as far as those so called titan grinders will go, but at a much lower price point of course…
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Absolutely. That is in fact what I am trying to draw attention to in the face of all the criticisms of influencers as fake reviewers etc - we are ourselves ALL biased. I am certainly not saying that influencers are less biased than a regular unpaid forumite! On the contrary we need to have our wits about us no matter whose recommendation is coming through and take thta into consideration including of our own biases…
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chlorox I just urge caution until things are proved based on considerable experience in the coffee area. I posted this about burrs on HB, hopefully you will find it interesting, especially @tompoland as I believe there was a post about expectations of 83mm Mazzer burrs performing the same in different grinders (also remember there are 2 variants of the 151B).
Sure I helped with the design, testing and specification of the Duo grinder and you may believe I have unconscious bias, however, I don’t make any money if you buy it, I don’t have a Patreon, I don’t monetize my channel even though I could and I have not put videos up to get clicks and views. I’m about as honest and knowledgeable as you are going to get and my past 20 year record speaks for itself. I don’t have to continually proclaim my honesty and depth of knowledge the moment I am butt hurt like some do. I don’t have hidden connections and I test properly. I don’t even call myself the “burr man”, I would be embarrassed to do that. I can only say, after many years, I know a little bit about burrs.
**maccompatible wrote:**I’ve heard the popular claim that slower RPM = less fines. A recent Lance Hedrick video claimed that RPM does NOT affect fines, but rather affects peak particle distribution. I haven’t really seen data either way, so this would be an interesting part of this discussion if anyone’s done it.
Do you have the link for that, I probably have not viewed it, but what is stated doesn’t match my own tests and results over more than 5 years. In fact, the EK43 results sound far more plausible with the types of burr sets being used and it doesn’t surprise me that the EK43 would produce more fines, it’s exactly what I would expect.
I suspect there may be reasons for the claims, specifically with the Sculptor only going as low as 800 rpm and severely torque limited at that RPM, as are many variable speed grinders at their minimum rpm. Other things apart from torque, such as burr geometry, carrier and sweep arm design etc.. all contribute to running at a low rpm being quite challenging, again something I have worked on for over 18 months.
by jfjj » Mon Apr 17, 2023 2:13 am
I saw that and kinda confused me a bit. I’d like to see the data on that. So faster RPM shifts to finer??
Faster RPM doesn’t produce finer particles because of speed per se. Rotational speed affects burr distance for any given grind, this burr distance dictates what I call “burr packing”. These things, plus geometry, affect feed rate, which together affect grind quality for any given burrset. It’s one of the reasons conical hand grinders work as well as they do and slow moving conical burr sets work better.
It’s a fairly complex area, but recent grinders I have played with which allow you to check the Micron distance between burrs support my views. I suspect as the grinder world moves forward, these effects will become far more important and “variable speed” will either be done right, especially as manufacturers aim for lower rotational burr speeds and overcome the challenges this poses. The challenges are, burr geometry, torque, feed rate and chamber clearance. There are certain rules that need to be followed and many burr types I have seen won’t properly support low speeds.