tobyjrn6 - I haven’t watched any of the videos and they don’t interest me. Not yet at least.

You can have the biggest burr area in the world, and if the grinder doesn’t pack the burr properly and those grinds end up being reground (poor burr chamber design, incorrect speed applied etc) then the whole thing is irrelevant. Dave talked a bit about that in the Niche Duo thread.

Besides… burr area… what does it mean in terms of taste? Isn’t this essentially the same as saying bigger burr is better?

    tobyjrn6 concerns are that the basic premise and theory is wrong. Burrs work a certain way and those sorts of assumptions are meaningless. Especially as speed is not taken into account at all. I realise somehow he has become the “burr man”, but it’s not right.

    In the same way I warned about aftermarket burrs in the zero, but few listened. I recommended the Kony burr for good reasons, one of them being that it was a great quality burr with very good geometry….Somehow the influencers got that wrong as well.

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      Well, a lot of people now buy gear just to be included in a group to talk about the gear they got, or because it’s modern and a last release. They dont really care about the palpable values or rational arguments.

      I mean, i’m looking at products that were hyped from reviewers some time ago and where they are now?

      People need validation with their purchase from others, in a closed chat group, it is what it is. The moment you raise questions about quality or results you are being excluded, shown the door. This is why I lost my interests in forums/groups and stuff like that.

        DenisS The moment you raise questions about quality or results you are being excluded, shown the door. This is why I lost my interests in forums/groups and stuff like that.

        I hope we’re not like that, as we have no commercial interests/advertisers to safeguard.

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            DavecUK

            I think what is relevant abou the burr size is that it functions as a way to categorise this grinder. The 78s is much more a competitor to the df83 or the niche duo than it is to the df64 or the p64 or to the p100 for reason of its approximately similar burr size for the lack of any other variable to categorise it according to.

                Yeah but two of the three are over £1500😆 so shouldn’t really be in the conversation.

                Sub £1k you should compare.

                Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                  jaron77 now wondering if getting ssp burrs for my DF64 would be better than getting the 078s?

                  Not sure where you got to with this but FWIW I popped some SSP Espresso (HU) and Gorilla Gear burrs in a couple of DF64s.

                  Seasoned and aligned.

                  Only four grinds and pours from each so far. 3 from medium roast and just the 1 from light roasted beans this afternoon.

                  So far the results are quite stellar. Especially from tne Gorilla Gear.

                  A long way to go including blind taste comparisons starting in May but just flagging that your thinking makes sense to me.

                    chlorox I think what is relevant abou the burr size is that it functions as a way to categorise this grinder.

                    If you are talking about the incorrect statements from an influencer…no, it doesn’t.

                    The Chinese have never before been known to manufacture good burrs. At the moment Steel from China is such low quality that Mazzer won’t make burrs with it, and ACS can’t use it to make machines, there is a shortage of really good quality steel.

                    There are also many other things to consider regarding grind quality and burr performance. I made a post on HB explaining this, I might post it on here as well.

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                        DavecUK

                        No, I am not referring to lance hedrick’s comments. I was suggesting rather that the most relevant reason for citing the burr size is as a product categorisation tool.

                        As for whether the burrs will perform as well, the taste test will be the measure of the grinder once it finally comes out into the wild and is used by the many people who have backed it on kickstarter. While i do not know about the quality of steel being used but is it a good pracrice to dismiss all burrs made from a certain country before they are even tried? For instance, Denis has good reports about the qualitt of the filter coffee made from the turbo burrs and those are also likely to be made in China as well?

                        By the way to illustrate my earlier post in the niche duo thread on infliencers videos etc, you have in effect indirectly burnished the perceived quality of the niche duo which uses Mazzer burrs by suggesting the 78s burrs will not be quality burrs…i mean no offence but this is what I mean when I say that everyone is unconsciously biased, not just influencers and bloggers. The fact that u r Involved in the niche design and testing process already means u have an iron in this fire even thoigh you dont get a cent out of it…and thta is true of everyone who received a duo for testing…that doesn’t bother me as I consider all this info as useful bit its really a continuum, not another universe…

                        Anyway whether or not those burrs turn out to be substandard, then I am sure SSP will be quick to capitalise on that emerging market by offering their burrs in 78mm sooner or later.

                            Cuprajake

                            Sure, price is another possible basis for differentiating on the product category. It isn’t mutually exclusive though as both variables can be used as the differentiating criterion - eg within the approx 80mm market, you have the higher priced ones like the eg-1 & the ditting lab sweet and you have the medium priced ones and the lower priced ones.

                              price and location will play a massive part, there was talk of the duo hitting $1400 in some places, and like wise we see an increase for stuff we import say a weber key,

                              end of the day if you like what you bought thats all that matters,dont need grumpy old men on the internet to tell you so

                              Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                                Cuprajake

                                I agree on how high the price can rise to - for example I wanted a monolith but in the end I had to give up on that plan when it slowly dawned on me that the total cost would have almost equalled what I spent on my machine! :) It’s only that it would be good if we can know what others have said about the machine to have some idea of what it will be like before we spend the bucks and install it on our counter…

                                    chlorox But the coffee machine just works like an oven, in the sense that it makes a drink as a result of your grinds and shot preparation, therefore I would argue that the grinder is more important than the machine. That said, I do not have any belief, that these high end grinders that folks regularly shell out top dollar on actually produce anything more drinkable than the next. But, since it only matters to the owner who cares?

                                    https://www.suddencardiacarrestuk.org/2024/02/thank-goodness-for-madeira-cake/

                                        chlorox The fact that u r Involved in the niche design and testing process already means u have an iron in this fire even thoigh you dont get a cent out of it…and thta is true of everyone who received a duo for testing…

                                        I think you are talking about the perceived unconscious bias! One can never remove it - given free for testing, designed and developed and paid the unit before testing. However, when you back it with evidence it’s all good IMO. Trust does matter.

                                            LMSC

                                            Yes I am indeed. But that’s the insidious thing about unconsciois bias - it can twist your judgement in ways not easily controllable by one’s own will or awareness. Another example of the hidden power of this bias is how lance hedrick is referred to on this forum before he fell out with the entire forum and afterwards. Now he is almost like Voldemort - the one who must not be named…

                                                chlorox You can never remove the hidden / unconscious bias from the eyes of the public. If some one pays for a grinder or machine, are we seriously expect that person to say it is no good and not fit for purpose! It ain’t going to happen, IMO. 🤷‍♂️ May be, we see an outlier.

                                                Edit:

                                                The bottom line, we know we all benefit from recommendations on forums like this.

                                                    dfk41

                                                    I agree the grinder is very important just as the machine is very important. I do not know which is more important. I wish I could afford a grinder that costs as much or more thna my machine but unfortunately my budget doesn’t go that far. Hence my interest to get a grinder that goes almost all the way as far as those so called titan grinders will go, but at a much lower price point of course…

                                                        LMSC

                                                        Absolutely. That is in fact what I am trying to draw attention to in the face of all the criticisms of influencers as fake reviewers etc - we are ourselves ALL biased. I am certainly not saying that influencers are less biased than a regular unpaid forumite! On the contrary we need to have our wits about us no matter whose recommendation is coming through and take thta into consideration including of our own biases…

                                                            chlorox thats also why I am going for a 064s to dip a toe and then see if I can see any difference to my hand grinders - though tbh just having a motor for larger drinks runs will be perfect 😂