DavecUK Want to have a temperature controlled kettle
not make coffee for more than one person (as it takes a while), if 2 or 3 people wanted coffees, you would all be drinking them separately and for 3 people, yours would be cold by the time you finished.

Well… it’s not a temp controlled kettle is it? Kettles don’t dispense water under pressure, so it’s a little bit unfair to say that.

If I didn’t drink milk drinks, it would a nice machine for me. It’s only me who drinks coffee in my household. Visitors… they can have tea or a French press. 😊

      FadedFrontiers Most manual levers … nope. La Pavoni, Olympic Cremina, Argos Odyssey, and spring levers Elektra MCAL, Ponte Vecchio Lusso, Londinium Compressa, Izzo Alex Leva, more… will turn out lots of shots quickly, assuming the user is competent.

      Meticulous ’workflow on the other hand cannot be improved by competence; the limitations Dave pointed out are built-in.

          DavecUK - Oh I see. I understand what you mean now. I think you can let the machine warm up the water itself but it takes ages… So you need a temp. controlled kettle to fill up the machine. I remember now. Thank you for clarifying, and I now understand your point.

          And it’s so true about the footprint: I remember when I sold my machine back in the day - a Pro-700, and replaced with a hand grinder, a filter, a kettle, a milk frother etc… It took a lot more space in the surfaces than the machine itself. The only advantage is that I could put some items away, but it’s a total pain in the neck to setup everything every morning.

            dfk41 A lucky escape then! If you had been an early adopter, would you still be so positive matey? No one really expects fund raised projects to stick closely to timelines……then there is the Meticulous

            I have no interest in buying that machine, more so after knowing some of the history of the previous projects… So no, not for me. Am I positive? I don’t think I need to be negative. I like the idea of the machine, and I wish them good luck. But I’d rather buy one from a retailer, if I were to buy one, even if I had to pay more.

              BrendaninBrooklyn Flair 58+ = $640; Meticulous planned price =$ 2,000; now available as a special Indiegogo price = $1,350.

              Meticulous started at just over 1000usd and as I said not far off, especially in the world of espresso where people are paying hundreds for a smart profiler, a scale, some wood add ons or a basket 🤣 Strietman and higher end levers are still far more than this, so relatively speaking it’s not crazy money if this is your thing - a big gamble sure.

              BrendaninBrooklyn Most manual levers … nope. La Pavoni, Olympic Cremina, Argos Odyssey, and spring levers Elektra MCAL, Ponte Vecchio Lusso, Londinium Compressa, Izzo Alex Leva, more… will turn out lots of shots quickly, assuming the user is competent.

              Meticulous ’workflow on the other hand cannot

              I meant manual boilerless levers like Flair, Cafelat, etc where workflow and quick back to back shots capability is often also a common complaint, but you’re missing the point by comparing it to machines that either need temp surfed, cooled between shots, heavily modded or cost considerably more than the Meticulous.

              This isn’t for some cafe with lots of customers, it’s for people who want to tweak every element of their shot, look at the graphs and taste different styles of espresso - not dump it in a latte or another milky drink. May not be for many of us on the forum but we can still acknowledge that there’s a bunch of people who want this sort of thing otherwise it wouldn’t have got funded in the first place.

                    FadedFrontiers

                    the actual Indie… special deal price is more than double the Flair 58+; that’s not a slight difference.

                    La Pavoni Europiccolo, La Pavoni Professional, Argos Odyssey, Ponte Vecchio Lusso are all less than Meticulous; Elektra MCAL is slightly more @ $1,695. All of the machines mentioned here and previously are domestic not commercial; none are particularly expensive. All can, without mods or extra expense, produce at least four shots in a brief time and then steam them too if desired. And levers inherently already do much of what Meticulous promises.

                    I believe you are missing my point. Meticulous, assuming it ever comes to market and actually works as advertised (two very large assumptions) is still a one-cup maker.

                    If someone wants to experiment widely, the machines from Decent already do so and do so for continuous servings. You can already do most of it on the Argos Odyssey btw, including graphs, for four cups before refilling and a plumbed-in option is in development.

                        BrendaninBrooklyn La Pavoni Europiccolo, La Pavoni Professional, Argos Odyssey, Ponte Vecchio Lusso are all less than Meticulous; Elektra MCAL is slightly more @ $1,695. All of the machines mentioned here and previously are domestic not commercial; none are particularly expensive. All can, without mods or extra expense, produce at least four shots in a brief time and then steam them too if desired. And levers inherently already do much of what Meticulous promises.

                        I mean they’re all nice, classic machines but you can’t pretend they’ll do the same job, they’re extremely inconsistent and don’t offer temp control - hence the temp surfing and cooling down between shots 🤣

                        None aside from the Odyssey Argos provide close to the control that Meticulous promises (again whether it delivers is a different matter). But to get these features from the OA you need to upgrade the 1.1k machine with a 275usd smart profiler and 250usd scale (both of which come with Meticulous).

                        I get your point, I’m saying Meticulous is obviously not for people who want to pull fast back to back shots or steam milk. You’re criticising it for something it’s clearly not designed for, it’s for people who want control every aspect of espresso extraction and you don’t get that with any of the other machines you just mentioned for the same price, except a Decent for 1k+ more or an OA for a similar price with smart add-ons.

                            FadedFrontiers

                            If there’s extreme inconsistency, then the problem is at the other end of the portafilter ;-)

                            Let me ask, what exact parmeters do you want to control because maybe I’m missing something? What levers have you used?

                            Odyssey can use third-party bluetooth transducers costing as little as $50; however let’s say we stick with the Argos $ 1,100 for next batch machine +$ 275 for transducer + $125 for any smart scale for a total of$ 1,500, and without the plumbing option still in R&D, you can make four shots and steam if you like.

                            All of this may be moot because if their last post was on the level then tomorrow we should see up to 50 customers announcing they have received shipping notices, and a week later the first actual udser reports. Oh, and that would also imply the fund-raising period is over and the price will immediately increase to $2,000 or more.

                            $2,000 or more for a single-shot machine does not seem altogether sensible to me.

                                FadedFrontiers

                                Whoops ! Just took a look and their project plan shows production starting in April 2025. I’m not holding my breath. However, besides the 3,700+ backers they had on Kickstarter, they’ve now accumulated over 5,100+ backers on Indiegogo as well. All of these at $1,000 or more. Barnum was right.

                                  FadedFrontiers

                                  A small correction about Argos – “The machine itself has bluetooth built in. No need for anything else to connect to the app and get the information about boiler temp, group head temp, brew set temp, and water level status. More info becomes available with bluetooth enabled scale and the optional transducer”.

                                    I recall reading that somebody with a patent had sent a cease and desist letter of demand to meticulous and decent or something along those lines - do i recall that right? If that is true then that seems to be the biggest threat this project will face as they may have to redirect funds to pay for legal representation instead.

                                      chlorox

                                      Yes, there was or is a patent troll in the picture. However, Decent has not paused nor changed course, so I assume he was disposed of. His claims were mostly not granted patents outside the USA, they were that weak.

                                      I doubt the troll is the problem.

                                      Decent after almost nine years and over 9,000 machines shipped has recently reached the 30 employee mark. Odyssey with over 500 machines shipped and another thousand-plus orders for add-ons fulfilled, has 12 – 15. Meticulous with only press releases shipped has 40 to 45. This does not compute ;-)

                                          BrendaninBrooklyn
                                          I certainly hope the patent holder doesn’t get his way as it would stifle consumer choice. While the decent machines are not what I’m looking for in an espresso machine, their existence in the market is essential as many people want that kind of capabilities and there really is nothing else that matches it or can give that sort of capability that is available for decent money (pun intended). And evne if I’m not their target customer, the fact that a machine with that sort of ability can be readily bought on the market enriches the whole market for everyone else too.

                                              BrendaninBrooklyn Let me ask, what exact parmeters do you want to control because maybe I’m missing something?

                                              Yes you are missing something - just because you personally don’t see the need to control variables like flow, pressure profile, temperature, etc. you think machines without these features will do the same job. They won’t and all those backers you mention seem to want these features, so I don’t see the issue here.

                                              If you’d rather have back to back cups and milk foaming, cool well maybe those older machines are better suited for you. You can make it out like a good operator can get the same results, but it’s like saying the Gaggia or Silvia provides the same control as a Decent 👍

                                              It was the same with xBloom, I’d never personally get one but clearly there’s a demand and the company delivered on their backers despite all the question marks about their manufacturing background on here. It’s right to be cautious with these things especially when talking large sums of money but afterwards nobody ever seems to put their hands up and say, oh I was wrong about this maybe they did do what they said they would.

                                                  FadedFrontiers The Decent is a coffee machine. It makes coffee from whatever you put into it…..like an oven. The variables it allows you to control are great. What about trying to achieve constant level with bean roasting, grinding, distribution, tamping etc etc…..until you can control those, the Decent is as effective as the UK with its circa 1% contribution to net zero, reaching it first with all of its hypocrisy.

                                                  Whether you think you can or whether you think you cannot, you are probably right anyway.

                                                  https://www.suddencardiacarrestuk.org/2024/02/thank-goodness-for-madeira-cake/

                                                    FadedFrontiers but afterwards nobody ever seems to put their hands up and say, oh I was wrong about this maybe they did do what they said they would.

                                                    You could equally same the same about the failures, or products that didn’t remotely live up to the expectations and (in more recent years) influencer shizzle around them.

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