I like the tamper
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Grinder comparision lab (TLDR warning)
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tompoland But an increment here (burr) and incremental there (WDT) another one over there (paper filters) and another one here (temperature) … well, you get the idea, they can add up to a marked difference in the cup.
Sorry to go off topic for a moment (I can start a separate thread on this). I’ve seen a major taste benefit when I changed from my Eureka Mignon to my NZ and another significant benefit when I changed my WDT method from one thick needle to several 0.35mm needles (ie got my distribution right) and another when I started using a screen on the puck top. No more channeling.
I’m curious about what you have learned about temperature. And any other increments
I wonder if you can tell a real difference between grinders when cupping? I know the process is to test beans rather than grinders but surely it should bring out some variation, or is the whole point of cupping that it avoids the variables of different grinders and brewing methods?
Dusk cupping comes with it’s own variables, it doesn’t avoid any more/less. It’s a quick and convenient way to compare multiple coffees in real time. That’s all.
Grind setting, brew ratio and steep time are just as relevant for cupping, and many folks have different ideas on these things but still call what they do, “cupping”. (Which is fine with me, I don’t see any magic, or great desirability to following the SCAA protocol).
I think it reasonable to expect ‘differences’ between grinders, when dialed in comparably, the important question is what are these differences in a sensory aspect and do they align with your specific preferences (I predominantly want to enjoy my coffee, not make sure it adheres to someone else’s perception, when they brewed it 50 miles away, with everything else being different).
@tompoland What will your dial in procedure be?
With any refractometer you will need to filter the samples for espresso. This will get expensive quick and having EY measurements won’t affect the other factors in the test, so I’m not sure what the value will be (unless it’s just a dial in aid)?
MWJB thanks for your thoughts.
“How did you normalise the brews to ensure as much of an apples to apples comparison?”
The a a bit of a tricky one.
A review is one thing, a comparision is a very different beast.
For example, some grinders/burrs produce their best espresso at different ratios to others. I’m using the Niche for a 1:2 ratio ristretto type pour and it works well with the Nurri. Flow rate is around 1ml/sec so it’s obviously a fine grind. But I doubt that would work so well on a Lamon P100 using SSP Multi Purpose burrs. So to set up all of the variables the same for two very different grinders would tilt the results in favor of one.
That being the case with a two burr set comparison, do I set all the variables the same e.g. grind size, gring to pour weight ratio, temperature, pre-infusion, pressure profile, and have a like for like comparison?
Or do I recognise that every burr set is different and find the best set of variables to get the most out of each grinder?
One solution may be to only compare similar burr sets e.g. two smaller conicals like the Varia VS3 and Lagom Mini or a Mazzer 64mm burr set to a Gorilla Gear 64mm DLC burr set. Or two big burr sets like the SSP HU (or MP) 98mm burrs with the 83mm DLC burrs from Turin.
And if there is not an obviously similar comparision to be had, then to simply review a grinder on its own merits and refrain from the temptation to compare apples with oranges.
Thoughts anyone?
Cuprajake it works well for me becasue I like self levelling tampers but the springs in most of them play havoc with my wrist arthritis. The Malwani tampers are aroun 800g and as such all I need to do is to sit the tamper on the coffee bed and gravity does most of the work. I simple push with fingertips on the edges of the tamper a la dave c does the rest
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MWJB What is the difference? What was the brew method?
Not 100% sure what you mean by this. Do you mean what’s the difference in the cup? Probably not becasue you have a great knowledge of these things already. Let me know if you are referring to something else.
But in case anyone else is wondering, the biggest difference is the seperation of notes with the Lagom versus the Niche (which I love and use most days) delivering more of a one-flavor punch.
Again, before legions of Niche lovers assail me with posts, I’m not knocking the Niche, I’m stating the obvious which is that it does something brilliantly well that the Lagom can’t do but also visa versa. You can’t manipulate a Lagom to taste like a Niche any more than you can manipulate a Niche to taste like a Lagom.
Yes, you can alter the results in the cup of both by changing beans, grind size, temperature and pressure profiling but the effects of changing all of these variables have their limits which are bounded by the burr geometry.
MWJB the important question is what are these differences in a sensory aspect and do they align with your specific preferences
very astute, you’ve just articulated yet another challenge in setting up my little grinder lab. That of my own personal preferences. To date, I’ve stated those preferences as a frame of reference for readers, when writing a grinder review. I’m not sure there are more practical alternatives at the moment. Just as some reviewers have a perchant for light roasts e.g. Hoffman/Hedricks, I have a preference for medium roasts.
MWJB What will your dial in procedure be?
With any refractometer you will need to filter the samples for espresso. This will get expensive quick and having EY measurements won’t affect the other factors in the test, so I’m not sure what the value will be (unless it’s just a dial in aid)?
still exploring all of that, hence the solicitation of ideas here.
you’ll probably have seen my comments above about comparing similar grinders and using the same dial in parameters for both as opposed to comparing very dissimilar grinders and having to have completely different dial in parameters in order to get the best out of each grinder.
And that makes even more sense because not too many people are going to be interested in comparing two complete different grinders e.g. a Breville Smart Pro to an EG-1. But an EG-1 and a Lagom P64 or P100 … maybe.
MWJB With any refractometer you will need to filter the samples for espresso. This will get expensive quick and having EY measurements won’t affect the other factors in the test, so I’m not sure what the value will be (unless it’s just a dial in aid)?
That’s the way I see it, using the refractometer as a dial adjustment aid. Also as an objective confirmation of my subjective impressions. Kind of like an accuracy check. E.g. if I think one espresso is sweeter than the other, but the refractometer results suggest that it could be the other way around, that would warrant another pour.
The refractometer thing may become tiresome. I am trying to will myself into using it enough to get over the initial learning curve hump before I decide if it’s a long term fixture in the grinder lab or not.
(thanks again for your thoughts and questions, they are very helpful)
tompoland So to set up all of the variables the same for two very different grinders would tilt the results in favor of one.
That being the case with a two burr set comparison, do I set all the variables the same e.g. grind size, gring to pour weight ratio, temperature, pre-infusion, pressure profile, and have a like for like comparison?
The more you and all dive into these issues the more complicated it seems to become. My gut feel is that if you put a specific bean through one grinder it will require a specific set of parameters to dial in (which really means subjectively taste “good”). If you take that same bean and put it through a very different grinder with the same parameters it will (by definition) not be dialed in correctly (ie not taste “good”) because that grinder requires a different set of parameters to dial in.
I never had the opportunity to do a side by side comparison of my prior Eureka Mignon with my current Niche with my go to bean, but know that they dialed in very differently.
Unfortunately I do think that you need to take both approaches: 1. Dial in until the shot tastes “good” for one style of drink (say a 1:1.5 ristretto) and also 2: Use a standardized set of parameters. Then try the above for a variety of bean roasts and types. Only then will you know how the grinder impacts taste and why.
I still have a conundrum about the above. Approach 1 will be (by definition) subjective. Approach 2 will (by definition) treat one grinder unfairly. I don’t know the answer to this conundrum.
Overall its going to be alot of work. But you will well know the ins and outs of how each grinder tastes by the time you are done.
If you could achieve one thing, and that is put the conical vs flat taste debate to rest, that would be awesome.
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JHCCoffee If you could achieve one thing, and that is put the conical vs flat taste debate to rest, that would be awesome.
It’s at rest in my mind 😁 … I guess that’s a start.
But it’s like most coffee things, there are multiple layers of complexity once you scratch below the surface.
tompoland Or do I recognise that every burr set is different and find the best set of variables to get the most out of each grinder?
This would be the only reasonable way. We make coffee because we like the taste, there’s no requirement for the coffee to meet time/weight trials if we’re getting the best cup from each grinder. I don’t see why different burrs at the same size should be treated any differently to burrs different from any other reason?
[unknown] Not 100% sure what you mean by this. Do you mean what’s the difference in the cup? Probably not becasue you have a great knowledge of these things already. Let me know if you are referring to something else.
Sure, what is the difference in taste?
Was it consistent accross 10 coffees (I often find that 2 grinders will go back & forth on preferred cups with different coffees, all else being equal)?
How did you ensure that you weren’t ‘making’ the difference, hence I asked about the brew method (tried & tested already, normalised over differing grinders)?
Which grinder made the nicest coffee (if flavours are separated and it is a flavour you do not like, is that good)?
tompoland Not 100% sure what you mean by this. Do you mean what’s the difference in the cup? Probably not becasue you have a great knowledge of these things already. Let me know if you are referring to something else.
Sure, what is the difference in taste?
Was it consistent accross 10 coffees (I often find that 2 grinders will go back & forth on preferred cups with different coffees, all else being equal)?
How did you ensure that you weren’t ‘making’ the difference, hence I asked about the brew method (tried & tested already, normalised over differing grinders)?
Which grinder made the nicest coffee (if flavours are separated and it is a flavour you do not like, is that good)?