I am sure that this argument has been discussed many times before, and will be discussed many times going into the future. What I am looking for, is folks who have either had or got both at the same time. I have. At the start of lock down 1, I had a Clima Pro and a Niche. The Pro was brand new and barely run in. My coffee habit always has been folks dropping in and out in a day, therefore the convenience of running a hopper fed grinder appealed. When you run this system, you have to accept tolerances of probably + or - 1 gram or more. Single dosing does away with this but then a whole new shot routine comes in. When was the last time you saw them single dose, invert into the pf. Level, stir, genuflect etc etc........and all for what? So, back on topic, I decided to put the 2 Grinders up against each other for a good few weeks. The result was that the CP won hands down in most aspects, but the Niche for me, edged it in the taste test. So, my question is, can any other dual on owner, give me their thoughts on the same bean in a flat v conical taste off please?

@"dfk41"#p3294 - I'm interested in knowing the results here. But, it's important to specify what beans one are using, as it might be that one type of grinder is more suitable (taste wise) for a given type of bean and roast profile. As an example, and no offence, as we all know taste is subjective and thankfully we all don't have the same tastes, for myself at least, there's no point the Niche being the "winner" if the beans were dark roasted. I'm not a fan of those, so any results of such comparison are meaningless, to me at least. @"dfk41"#p3294 - I assume your comparison was using dark roasted beans?

Same here. I hope experienced folks who have or have had the luxury of using both will chip in. I know views / recollection based on memory is not ideal. I am looking at light to medium roasts. Edit : I can see myself getting an electrical grinder. Flat or Conical is the biggest dilemma, although my heart says Flat! 😊

The one thing that does concern me is the cognoscenti who make pronunciations on a grinder or grinders, it's performance, the coffee….in a video lasting 20 minutes, and you never see unedited video of: * The grinders grinding shots * actual weight in/out * them opening the burr chamber and to show you what's inside * how you clean it and what really comes out * how you remove the burrs/carriers * the shots made by the grinder using a naked portafilter I personally think the way grinder reviews are done is appalling, and how anyone can use them to make a decision is beyond me. I guess it was similar for machine reviews, before I appeared on the scene and started removing the cases….which is now commonplace.

i cant really talk conical vs flat, but i can deffo say stock flat vs ssp burrs are different again, i find the stock burrs more acidic, were the ssp bring more sweetness and clarity.

@"Cuprajake"#p3311 @"Cuprajake"#p3311 what kind of ssp burrs and in what grinder? hu/multipurpose/unimodal

Yes, I use darker beans, so I suggest a description and photo. Not dark be definition but certainly medium and a bit more. I always take @"DavecUK"#1 as a measuring point and he drinks medium and a bit lighter yet uses the Niche and is a super taster!

hi, 83mm hu ssp in a mazzer major :)

@"Cuprajake"#p3311 What a combo? Sorry for being nosy! How much did that set you back, if I may ask, please ? You don’t have to answer, if you don’t want to. Thx Jake.

the grinder was a 2019 model off ebay im sure it was £240 del then the burrs were $350usd and i dont think i got import tax on them, but could be wrong so about £500 in total, i did have a wong doserless kit at one point, but went to a funne [upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/fwI3vUi.jpeg ]

@"Cuprajake"#p3348 That’s a cracking deal for the 2019 model. Well done! 👏

Flat versus Conical

MediumRoastSteam

FadedFrontiers Even if the Duo even came out 3 years ago it would have capitalised on a lot more buzz, that’s just how far things have moved on.

I agree with you on this. Personally, I think the Duo is at least 1 year too late. The market is now well supplied with a lot of choice.

I think the Duo is well priced for the UK if you are into the “Duo” concept. For other markets… I’m not so sure.

DavecUK

FadedFrontiers If we held the NZ to the same scrutiny and skepticism as we are these other Crowdfunded coffee projects now

Believe me it was!

FadedFrontiers

DavecUK well it’s a good thing some people had faith and backed it isn’t it! Comes with the territory with crowdfunding, if you like a project and want to risk backing it you get a potential reward at the end of it under RRP. People showed a lot more blind faith backing unknown grinder manufacturer Niche versus a company with a track record of grinders and coffee gear. I’m glad the gamble paid off, the NZ was successful and the naysayers proven wrong.

Cuprajake

FadedFrontiers it was wasn’t it? I’m sure Hoffman said he dismissed it because of that

Alot can change in 5yrs.

I was very anti niche for a long time, I had one. Sold it. Didn’t rate it.

Then I wanted a kony but found more unicorn horns than konys for sale 🤣 the zero is the perfect wife grinder. As its set forget

In the morning the Mrs can dose 16.5g pull the leva and she’s done. No messing etc. No faff.

Still think the looks are very subjective

Now the could of quite easily made it look like a lever craft ultra thing, but I’d bet the majority of zero buyers have them next to their breville/sage.

JonWoo187

People tend to get a bit caught up in things that often make no real world difference. I strongly prefer hand grinding and of course that’d be the conical approach and if I want a change in taste/texture I approach that with green selection and roast development. Those chasing certain flavor profiles with burr/grinder swaps are just pissing away money, time and effort for minute differences to say the least. I do find it hilarious when there’s so much buzz surrounding certain products and all the talk from the lame YT ‘influencers’ (a.k.a. B.S. artists) then soon after those items are available many of them end up in the buy/sell forums more often than not.

DavecUK

JonWoo187

People tend to get a bit caught up in things that often make no real world difference.

I strongly prefer hand grinding and of course that’d be the conical approach and if I want a change in taste/texture I approach that with green selection and roast development.

Those chasing certain flavor profiles with burr/grinder swaps are just pissing away money, time and effort for minute differences to say the least.

I do find it hilarious when there’s so much buzz surrounding certain products and all the talk from the lame YT ‘influencers’ (a.k.a. B.S. artists) then soon after those items are available many of them end up in the buy/sell forums more often than not.

I’m going to break the statement into it’s 4 parts.

I completely agree, there is a huge element of Unicorn chasing introduced into coffee…it’s the old Daz washes whiter thing and better than before…My goodness our clothes must be so white now we need sunglasses. There’s many useless features introduced, but funny how the ones we really need are not. This is mainly because influencers (I don’t believe) don’t really properly live with the product in that way.

e.g. machines with push button water dispensing still don’t allow it to dispense water when you turn the steam boiler off, I just had one manufacturer change that…they buggered up the programming logic slightly, but they can fix that. I don’t think this is a feature any “influencer” would ask for. It’s not even a “whizzy” feature, but so, so important.

We are however surrounded by a lot of stuff we either don’t need, or it tries to make up for deficiencies of equipment/technique. Sometimes there is simply the oft unfulfilled promise of better coffee, or being a better person. I’ve tried some very expensive grinders EG1, Lagom P100 etc.. and I am left feeling…meh, glad it wasn’t my money.

Hand grinding is OK, but there is a difference between that and flat burrs for espresso and filter (less so without specific filter burrs). A lot of people don’t want to hand grind though. The benefits of hand grinding can be a small footprint coffee setup, or good filter coffee on a budget that’s transportable. I have a 1Zpresso hand grinder and it’s a nice thing to own.
To an extent, I think there are some quick wins, but then with the very expensive burr options (SSP) you start chasing unicorns again. Or get very small improvements…where a much bigger improvement can be from better coffee, or technique.
These guys are doing far more damage to the industry that people realise (on all levels). It’s a big subject that can’t really be covered in a simple forum post. They are unaware and don’t care, as it’s all about the money. If there wasn’t money in doing it, most of those channels would not exist. Oddly enough at the moment that sort of video is what people seem to want?? It’s really hard for customers to now know what’s what and really get information about anything…until it’s too late, or they find out by personal experience (expensive).

dfk41

FadedFrontiers There was no risk with the Zero. The purpose of crowdfunding was to fund tooling costs of a finished product, ready for retail use…..not to develop it in any way

tompoland

@JonWoo187 With respect, however far you get with that approach, it can be taken further with the right burr set.

That’s precisely why we have different burr sets.

And you can still make your point, to which there is some truth, without implying that people who swap burrs are hilariously stupid.

tompoland

DavecUK . Oddly enough at the moment that sort of video is what people seem to want

Given a choice, most people prefer entertainment to education.

It’s probably been that way since time began.

Have to agree though that in the last few years (since covid started?) the number of YT influencers has sky rocketed. Whenever there is an explosion in quantity, there is a decline in average quality.

whinmoor85

DavecUK These guys are doing far more damage to the industry that people realise (on all levels). It’s a big subject that can’t really be covered in a simple forum post. They are unaware and don’t care, as it’s all about the money. If there wasn’t money in doing it, most of those channels would not exist. Oddly enough at the moment that sort of video is what people seem to want?? It’s really hard for customers to now know what’s what and really get information about anything…until it’s too late, or they find out by personal experience (expensive).

YouTube rewards frequency and new products are an infinite source of content to feed the algorithm.

TBF to Lance Hedrick he made a video recently stating people might be better off spending their money on quality coffee rather than chasing the latest and greatest equipment. I agree with that sentiment but he’s probably the worst offender for chasing the newest products available.

LMSC

Hand grinding is ok for a cup or two espresso, provided it isn’t light and medium light.

Am using JX Pro for 2.5 years and often the coffee beans are light and medium light.

On an average, during the last 2 years, it’s been taking me 7s to grind 1g of beans. It is hard, I don’t want to risk an injury grinding faster, grinding faster means my hands would ache or become too tired the rest of the day, and I can’t be asked anymore! 😊

Certain coffee pushes the grinding to Turkish grind size territory and the pour will still be faster.

The filter grind size is a breeze.

Can’t wait for the Duo to drop at home.

JonWoo187

LMSC Unless the rotator cuff tendons are ripping away when I wake up I always look fwd to hand cranking. Average 6-7 19 gram doubles in a few hrs every morning and just never get tired of it. If I have a bulk amount of 1 coffee to churn through I’ll use the old school electric beast, but it just never quite matches the manual involvement for me. Actually really like how I can smell/feel how much development I obtained with my roasting by hand grinding as well. Guess I’m also one of very few that find the beastly Helor 106 to be a bit on the light/dainty side, bwahahaha…

JonWoo187

whinmoor85 I’ve been stating that sort of thing for years as the coffees being used and skill involved is easily more important than any equipment choice. I also gladly state that the modern take/fad with machine function, burr changes, etc. is geared toward making ‘cutting edge’ underdeveloped coffees more palatable.

whinmoor85

JonWoo187 That maybe the case regarding underdeveloped roasts but I’ve never come across it. I was always under the impression that the Nordic light roasters (Tim Wendelboe, Coffee Collective) were well regarded roasters.

MWJB

JonWoo187 I also gladly state that the modern take/fad with machine function, burr changes, etc. is geared toward making ‘cutting edge’ underdeveloped coffees more palatable.

I don’t believe that people like underdeveloped coffee roasts, maybe a little more likely to drop into with light roasts, but certainly not common and a very prominent/easy to detect fault with light roasts, still occurs with medium roasts too.

Underdeveloped roasts are usually lacking in sweetness, muddled flavour characteristics, umami/savoury notes.

Dusk

I quite enjoy hand grinding, I think part of it is using a well made piece of machinery which is always a satisfying experience for me. There’s so much cheaply made stuff in the world that real quality feels like a luxury!

JonWoo187

Dusk Definitely something very well made makes all the effort worth it every day!

DavecUK

whinmoor85 I was always under the impression that the Nordic light roasters (Tim Wendelboe, Coffee Collective) were well regarded roasters.

I think they are, their roasting style focusses (at least Tims) on ensuring the coffee is developed. Rather than simple roasting lighter by roasting for less time. Unfortunately some roasters don’t develop the roast enough.

MWJB

I have too many hand grinders. Using one with a good fit, finish, feel & low retention, definitely makes it the most likely one that I will reach for (in my case that’s a Feldgrind), but even the established £50-£60 hand grinders (Porlex, Hario Slim, Rhino) grind well enough for perfectly good cups of filter…just much more slowly.

Most of the time though, I’ll use my Niche Zero, or Wilfa flat. After several years of only hand grinding (often over 100g a day, 42-80g at a time) hand grinding is something I do when I get the motivation.

dfk41

I have ben using my Zero for a couple of weeks, with a medium plus roasted bean. It is all I have drunk in that time. On Monday, I am going to revert back to the Duo, so ought to be in a position to notice the differences……!

tompoland

JonWoo187

That may the best engineered hand grinder in the world. Had one and they are quite extraordinary and not easy to come but either. Now I know why you like hand grinding.

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